I've made a couple of adjustments to the arcade; most importantly, I've changed it so that everyone can now create tournaments; not just mods plus.
As a way of funding GUA's hosting costs, i've decided to offer users something extra in return for a small price. I am making avaliable 100 (93 remaining.) @giveupalready.com email addresses. Which can be setup as a stand alone email account or set to forward all email to another account.
You may choose any username for the account provided a) It isn't the username of someone else's gua account (ie not your own) b) It constitues a valid email address (certain chars such as @ are not allowed in email usernames for obvious reasons) and c) It isn't a name associated with a special meaning (eg admin, webmaster etc)
Emails will be assigned on a first come first served basis at a cost of £12 for the whole year. Anyone who has made a donation to GUA since January 2009 gets one for free (i'll need the paypal email address used for verification), moderators+ get a £2 discount, as do the first 5 signups.
To get your email account setup Pm me (Carnage) with your desired username and password and i'll give you instructions regarding payment. This thread can also be used for questions/queries.
"An apology for the Devil: It must be remembered that we have only heard one side of the case. God has written all the books." - Samuel Butler
"How can you know the coin without seeing both sides?" – DevilWithAHalo
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Think about what you know for a moment or two about Religion’s containing the Devil Figure head.
Now think about what you know about historical figures in history books.
Now think about how those historical figures are being depicted.
Consider that general or public history is written by the victors of these confrontations. Would not the victors desire to be in the better light over their adversaries?
Now think again about what you really know about the Devil Figure head. Do you know anything at all?
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Now the second side of this thought experiment…
Two small children come up to you bruised and bleeding obviously through some sort of altercation between the two.
You take one child to the side and discuss the situation with him. You make your determination of what happened on that child’s word and scold the other child for starting the altercation.
Was that the right thing to do?
Have you done that before? Are you sure?
Perhaps you’ve talked to God… when was the last time you’ve talked with the Devil?
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And there you have it, rather simple really, or is it?
I’m curious… are you being truthful with yourself as you answer these?
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I've attempted to explain this to you people prior to this point, but you just don't get it because your perceptions are different then my own. The reasons I came to GUA have long since gone the way of the dodo; there is no purpose for me to be here anymore and I'd hate to turn into one of you. It's a community I simply don't want to be a part of and you cause me another headache I can easily avoid. I leave you with one final lesson; nothing can overcome an open mind.
The first thing I thought of was Milton's Paradise Lost and the romanticized Satan as a battered and beaten leader. Of course, it's still somewhat biased in the sense that it was written by a Christian who was expected to come off at the end with the Devil being his usual temptful self, but unlike most other books written up until then, it was different and radical in the sense that it had always been God good, Satan bad.
Really, you're right. Theists have always dominated with tales of how gloriously they beat Satan, but we don't often get to see just how difficult things are for the Devil. Here in America, you often here about the brilliance and glory of the Americans during the Revolution and the World Wars, and of the Union during the Civil War. Most people find it hard to place events like that alongside Vietnam and the Gulf Wars, since a certain sense of nationalism gets in the way. As an American, you want America to win. As a theist, you want God to win.
Again, you're exactly right in saying that it's because theism is the favored child, the favored side to win. Why is that? Because it won out a few times and was since then considered the safest bet.
There is a term for this type of indoctrination as it applies to history. It's called Historical Revisionism and basically means that events are revised based on who's telling the story. I don't doubt that the same occurs between any two religions, let alone theist and satanist.
I actually glanced through the Black Book one time and I found that much of it was very compelling and attractive without going too much against my moral code, at least until I got to the ritual aspects of it. But really, that's not much different than some gruesome things theists are known to have done in their histories. So we ask ourselves, how different are the two, really? And is theism really right? And if so, how much of it isn't as right as we previously thought.
Quick thought. If God created Lucifer, and Lucifer was cast out of Heaven for being a pompous self-absorbed power-hungry idiot, why would I follow the one with LESSER power and risk being tossed into the pit of flames to burn for 1000 years? No offense, but it's simple logic. Satan is not as powerful as God, not even close, and never will be. What is the point of following him?
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MAT 5:44-45 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."
"You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Joe Pesci. Two reasons; first of all, I think he's a good actor. Ok. To me, that counts. Second; he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. Doesn't fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that god was having trouble with. For years I asked god to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog. Joe Pesci straightened that cock-sucker out with one visit." - George Carlin
Hanlon's Razor - Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Most people would just say "faith" and leave it at that.
Personally, I truly believe that God is good, even if he has the same emotions that humans have. Think about Christians, about the ones that aren't lunatics. I see them every day, other than just myself and Duck. They have a peace about them, something that I find very lacking in the pagans I know. Even the ones that proclaim to be happy are missing that inner peace that I have witnessed in hundreds of Christians. These are people with families, with normal lives, who do not smack people in the face with religion.
Given my experiences, and the facts that I have read/seen/heard, I am content in the personal knowledge that God is not wrong, or anything but good.
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MAT 5:44-45 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."
I’m going to break this down piece by piece based on the assumptions a great many people have from listening to one side of the story. A quick thought shares a great deal of guilt here, since most people seem to have impatience for a lengthy alternative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GekkoPixie
If God created Lucifer,
Who said God created Lucifer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GekkoPixie
and Lucifer was cast out of Heaven for being a pompous self-absorbed power-hungry idiot,
Who said that was the reason for the conflict?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GekkoPixie
why would I follow the one with LESSER power
Who said Lucifer has lesser power? (Although I could understand the reasoning that the victor was superior at least in that instance)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GekkoPixie
and risk being tossed into the pit of flames to burn for 1000 years?
Who said Lucifer’s place is a pit of flames?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GekkoPixie
No offense, but it's simple logic.
Not to open up the discussion to what defines Logic, I will simply state this; if you are basing your reasoning on logical thought, is it logical to create a conclusion based on ½ limited evidence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GekkoPixie
Satan is not as powerful as God, not even close, and never will be.
Who said that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GekkoPixie
What is the point of following him?
Normally I would question what prompted this specific question, but I already know. You were provided a consequence from the party that has the power currently. As Sr Gregor pointed out, are you simply following the mightier of the two parties? The point is self determined. What is the point of not following him?
Interestingly enough, we don’t really have evidence to support that either party is more dominant at this point than the other. If they were, I would contest that we should see additional evidence to support that. The only thing you have going for you at this time, is a promise validated by your personal beliefs that everything is going to work out in the end.
One thing I have notice as a large basis for conversion, is the idea that you cannot compete against the supreme power, which God is assumed to be. Many fall victim to the concept of Might=Right when that may not necessarily be the case.
While I won’t dive into the point of this thought experiment just yet, I will ask you whether or not you participated in it before you posted, or if you felt the quick thought would have made a difference against it?
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I've attempted to explain this to you people prior to this point, but you just don't get it because your perceptions are different then my own. The reasons I came to GUA have long since gone the way of the dodo; there is no purpose for me to be here anymore and I'd hate to turn into one of you. It's a community I simply don't want to be a part of and you cause me another headache I can easily avoid. I leave you with one final lesson; nothing can overcome an open mind.
Well, let's see what we can claim to know of Satan, using the Bible as source, and discarding works of fiction as apocryphal.
We know that Satan roams heaven and earth, rather than living in any particular place. (Job 1:6-7, 1 Peter 5:8)
It is possible that he is the god of this world, as referred to 2 Corinthians 4:4. If so, then he isn't even real. (Isaiah 45:6)
Apparently, Satan is also a sort of Prosecuting Attorney for God (Zechariah 3:1-2).
Just from reading Job, we should understand that the Satan figure is kind of powerless. He can't act on his own, per se, he needs permission from God to anything. This can be the only likely explanation for the apparent contradiction between 1 Chronicles 21:1 and 2 Samuel 24:1.
Given a lack of noting any other evil spirits that do God's bidding, one can reasonably assume he was also the spirit to trouble Saul in 1 Samuel 16:14, as well as the agent of God in 1 Kings 22:22.
Comparing the "cast-out angel" story from Milton to the actual bible, I have to start out by saying that clearly, Satan is simply an agent of God, nothing more, nothing less.
"You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Joe Pesci. Two reasons; first of all, I think he's a good actor. Ok. To me, that counts. Second; he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. Doesn't fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that god was having trouble with. For years I asked god to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog. Joe Pesci straightened that cock-sucker out with one visit." - George Carlin
Hanlon's Razor - Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Quick thought. If God created Lucifer, and Lucifer was cast out of Heaven for being a pompous self-absorbed power-hungry idiot, why would I follow the one with LESSER power and risk being tossed into the pit of flames to burn for 1000 years? No offense, but it's simple logic. Satan is not as powerful as God, not even close, and never will be. What is the point of following him?
America lost the Vietnam War. Does that mean we should defect to Vietnam? Not if you believe your side is in the right and have a strong sense of patriatism.
Quote:
Personally, I truly believe that God is good, even if he has the same emotions that humans have. Think about Christians, about the ones that aren't lunatics. I see them every day, other than just myself and Duck. They have a peace about them, something that I find very lacking in the pagans I know. Even the ones that proclaim to be happy are missing that inner peace that I have witnessed in hundreds of Christians. These are people with families, with normal lives, who do not smack people in the face with religion.
And what is the reason for that? Is it really a matter of God or just having one thing to place all your happiness in? Recall that story I wrote in Philosophy. The one thing that made the man’s whole life worth living was his wife. I’m that way with my girlfriend. Movies and books play on that theme continually.
I’ve known a few Satanists and Atheists who seem perfectly content and a number of Christians who are less than such.
Quote:
Given my experiences, and the facts that I have read/seen/heard, I am content in the personal knowledge that God is not wrong, or anything but good.
Does that include things like Paradise Lost or the Necronomicon? Again, the whole point of this thread is to illustrate that “God wrote all the books” and that we’ve not been allowed to here Satan’s side of the story.
Quote:
One thing I have notice as a large basis for conversion, is the idea that you cannot compete against the supreme power, which God is assumed to be. Many fall victim to the concept of Might=Right when that may not necessarily be the case.
Just a thought, but a lot of people are under the impression that a war marked the beginning and end of time. The first was when Satan was allegedly cast out and the latter is alluded to in Revalation (and other legends like Ragnarok). The key word in all this is “war.” A war is a conflict of two sides on a grand scale with conflicting ideologies. Each side feels they are in the right. But objectively, which side is really right? Right is not might, but perspective. Perspective comes from being able to see a certain side of the arguement. In the war between heaven and hell, God claims that Satan is using the evils of propaganda to deceive us and convert us to his side. But what does God use to do this? More propaganda. So then, can you really blame the devil for his methods?
God allegedly won last time, so people flock to him not wishing to receive the same fate. In other words, many have fallen as slaves to his will. Thus, we go back to: do we really have free will if God punishes those that break his laws? The answer is puzzling. Certainly, we have the ability to choose, but in the interests of self-preservation, we are forced to not choose as such. Therefore, those that do not question the authenticity and credibility of God’s purpose and simply follow it are the ones without free will. Those that know better but follow out of fear are also without free will. But only those who have heard both sides of the arguement and then made a choice based on which they felt was the more correct, not the more safe, are the ones who have free will.
Quote:
Comparing the "cast-out angel" story from Milton to the actual bible, I have to start out by saying that clearly, Satan is simply an agent of God, nothing more, nothing less.
Then God himself is not all good but is good at times and evil at others. Thus is your conclusion of what is stated in the Bible, correct?
Last edited by Marushia; 29th December 2005 at 05:51 PM..
OK, So I'm a little confused about this Christian mythology stuff.
The Satan, or just Satan as he is more commonly known, works for God, findings sinners and bringing them before God, playing the Prosecuting Attorney as Gregor mentioned.
So where does Lucifer come in? He was originaly the Roman god of enlightenment, but does Christianity work him into Heaven. From what I understand, it was lucifer who challenged God, and was therefor cast down into Hell.
But then why would Lucifer punish people in Hell, unless he was working in Gods favour? God wants you to go to Heaven, but Lucifer wants you to go to Hell, yes?
There must be something good about Hell, otherwise how could Lucifer tempt people to joining him if they already know they will be tortured for all eternity for doing so?
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and you felt like you were disappearing every time you crossed a road.
Last edited by sav; 29th December 2005 at 07:38 PM..
Lucifer is allegedly the name of God’s most powerful angel. The angel Lucifer is said to have been second in power and intelligence only to God himself. Christian lore has it that Lucifer rebelled against God, wanting to be his equal. God said no, cast Lucifer and his followers out of heaven where they founded Pandemonium (the capitol of hell) and plotted against humanity. He then became the Satan (the head adversary) and planned to turn humans against God, thereby shoving God’s own creation in his face as pay back.
The OT seems to suggest, as Gregor said, that Lucifer is merely the chief prosuctor (the Satan) for God in the trial of humanity and that it’s his job to find fault in people and expose their sinful ways so that God can deliver appropriate punishment.
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