Spirit

[Van]

I was talking to Ali Dheren the other day and had asked her to check out my spells considering that someone had said that they thought one of my spells would be godmodding. She said people could consider them as such without further explanation and she suggested that we should discuss spirit. I've decided to make a thread to discuss spirit more in depth than the Definition given and discuss the Guide try to define just what spirit mages can and can't do and other aspects of it all.

Also another note is i'd prefer those who actually have used spirit to some extent since they could better add to the discussion.

[Legion]

I was trained by Balan Ironbreaker and are currently undergoing training with Ali Dheren. I've also developped my own views on Spirit, so I guess I'll lend a hand if needed.

Ermn, in regard of the spells which someone thought was godmoding, I guess you mean your 'Soul - body rejection Technique' and 'Mind, Body, Spirit Severe Technique'? Because from how I read them, they are godmoding. If these aren't the spells you were referring to it might help to know which ones are.

I've taken the liberity of removing the strike tags so that the descriptions are more readable. I understand why you did strike them, but putting up 'Locked until approved' in bold and underlined isn't so much of an eyesore than striked words are.

Soul – body rejection Technique(Excellent) – By charging Spirit energy into an attack and negativing it so that it rejects spirits, he hits his opponent, usually in the head effectively knocking the soul out of the body. The opponent is then in spiritual form and is unable to control his body until he returns to his body, which is often long enough for Mythlen to launch an attack. Also most cannot do much in spirit form so it also allows Mythlen to attack their spirit directly. This requires contact of the opponent by something with spirit energy held within it, usually one of his fists.

Rereading the definition of Spirit (and especially, the bolded note below it), I can see why this spell would be considered godmoding. First off, you knock the soul out of the body. And while this does not result into immediate death, you do state that most people in their spiritual forms cannot do much and are pretty much helpless. I guess the only ones capable of defending themselves in a spiritual form would be Spirit Elementalists. Would that be correct?

Now, I don't know how you feel about that, but with me, that comes pretty damn close to being 'I sap the soul out of you and you die'. Too close for my liking, anyway. You wouldn't want to try this on my Dark Nikita, that much is sure, lol.

Mind, Body, Spirit Severe Technique(Master) – A technique similar in way to the soul – body rejection technique but instead of knocking the soul out of the body, it severs the connection of both body and mind to that of the soul. Most effective against other users of spirit but it temporarily disables the person from being able to properly control themselves and thus their ability to do anything is slowed greatly since all three parts are no longer connected properly. This completely stops spirit users from casting spells during the duration of the spell. The severe is only temporary in nature because the power require to completely severe the links permanently is great and could likely backfire. The usual time it takes for the links to reconnect is anywhere from a few moments to a minute. This requires contact with the solar plexus.

I'm a little confused about what the exact effect of this spell is. From what I see, this is an overly elaborate "I'm not allowing you to cast spells anymore" spell, with an apparent bonus that whoever is struck by this spell has poor control over what it is they're doing. So I really can't comment that much until you tell me what the effect of the spell is supposed to be.

The main problem I can spot with this spell would be the mind thing. Messing with the soul and emotions does fall under Spirit, but messing with the mind? If anything, I would place that under Phi, an admin Element created by Carnage, involving mind control and telepathy. Or, under certain circumstances, Psi, another mind-related Element which seems to be the power of telekinises above anything else. However, if I understand my Plato (or whatever Greek it was who formulated that 'shadows on the cave wall' idea) enough, just severing the soul from the body (without said soul forming a seperate entity) would cause enough problems for the victim.

[Van]

This thread was designed for more than just my spells but spirit in general. I never intended for my spells to be really brought up right away if at all. Anyway since we went to the subject of my spells I'll go ahead and discuss them.

Rereading the definition of Spirit (and especially, the bolded note below it), I can see why this spell would be considered godmoding. First off, you knock the soul out of the body. And while this does not result into immediate death, you do state that most people in their spiritual forms cannot do much and are pretty much helpless. I guess the only ones capable of defending themselves in a spiritual form would be Spirit Elementalists. Would that be correct?

Now, I don't know how you feel about that, but with me, that comes pretty damn close to being 'I sap the soul out of you and you die'. Too close for my liking, anyway. You wouldn't want to try this on my Dark Nikita, that much is sure, lol.

Similiar but different perhaps. And while others probably cannot defend themselves they could return to their bodies. I should probably inlcude in the description if I am going to keep it, it knocks you about a foot back out of your body. So basically the tip of your nose is 1 foot away from your physical nose. Also it says most can't do anything but whos to say they can't, except them right? although that would kinda defeat the purpose of being a spirit elementalist.

I'm a little confused about what the exact effect of this spell is. From what I see, this is an overly elaborate "I'm not allowing you to cast spells anymore" spell, with an apparent bonus that whoever is struck by this spell has poor control over what it is they're doing. So I really can't comment that much until you tell me what the effect of the spell is supposed to be.

The main problem I can spot with this spell would be the mind thing. Messing with the soul and emotions does fall under Spirit, but messing with the mind? If anything, I would place that under Phi, an admin Element created by Carnage, involving mind control and telepathy. Or, under certain circumstances, Psi, another mind-related Element which seems to be the power of telekinises above anything else. However, if I understand my Plato (or whatever Greek it was who formulated that 'shadows on the cave wall' idea) enough, just severing the soul from the body (without said soul forming a seperate entity) would cause enough problems for the victim.

I will kill two birds with one stone, and if i miss maybe a legion and marushia instead. O.o Im not quite sure which faith or whatever that has it, but mind, body and spirit are connected in it. Simply put, this spell breaks the connection between spirit and body and the connection between spirit and mind thus reducing actual control of the three since syncronization is broke. My assumption is that controlling your element would be linked to your soul in general so if your spirit is mis-aligned then it would be hard to do as such, and considering that your control is messed up, actions would be slowed down and your ability to cast spells would be lesser as well considering your all messed up. I do not actually mess with the mind but the connection between it and the spirit. which would probably be half spirit.


EDIT: also the spell only lasts for a post or two so it's basically a temp weakening spell

If you want a really good guide to learning the nature of Spirit, I'd check out Joshua P. Warren's book: "How to Hunt Ghosts" as a springboard for further development. The way Warren describes the spirit is actually similar to the way Angry teaches Spirit.

Are you a computer networker? because you seem to link people of GUA to alot of sites.

[Marushia]

If you want a really good guide to learning the nature of Spirit, I'd check out Joshua P. Warren's book: "How to Hunt Ghosts" as a springboard for further development. The way Warren describes the spirit is actually similar to the way Angry teaches Spirit.

[Marushia]

Are you a computer networker? because you seem to link people of GUA to alot of sites.

No, I'm not a computer networker. It's just that I thought you'd find it helpful in seeing what the book is about.

If you want, I'll give you a brief synopsis.

Again, it's a lot like Angry's method in that Warren suggests there is a spirit layer in all living things and that this layer can become separated from the flesh and bones.

Im not quite sure which faith or whatever that has it, but mind, body and spirit are connected in it.

That's a lot of different religions, actually.

[AliDheren]

Well, I'm finally here, Van.

I strongly suggest not to take religions into account of our talk on spirit or at least not just yet. I do believe that a particular religion may affect the view on spirit and the comprehension of it. Yet when it does is only to enrichen the view on what is already a mystery.

Precisely the fact that spirit as an element for magic is a mystery turns it challenging to roleplay with. In the time I've been roleplaying it I've found different conceptions and very interesting uses. Something quite relevant seems that only a few inquire about spirit like controlling ghosts. Most of them are interested in how it works as the unity of realities. That's my particular approach anyway and I've learnt how to wave different concepts and learn from them.

Yet the other challenge in spirit is to make it clear when writing it. Being mysterious in itself and quite hard to explain, it turns out that rivals feel threatened by spirit spells, basically because they don't really know how they work, so they feel you are godmodding on them. Even if you know your limits, they really don't see them. The spirit elementalist has a very different view on reality and has to be clear, as much as possible, in the use of his or her spells.

Of course there is an option to use obscurity as an asset, but only if you are agile and wise enough to make a fair play.

Now, will you suggest a starting line of discussion?

ps.
I believe there is no problem in ressurecting the Summa Spiritui etcetera... Sometimes I feel better when reflecting about this stuff IC'ly. But that's just me. I believe Ali Dheren would be pleased to know Mythelen but I do suspect she will have the chance on learning from him soon.

[Petoux]

Definitions of spirit on the Web:

* the vital principle or animating force within living things
* the general atmosphere of a place or situation and the effect that it has on people; "the feel of the city excited him"; "a clergyman improved the tone of the meeting"; "it had the smell of treason"
* a fundamental emotional and activating principle determining one's character
* any incorporeal supernatural being that can become visible (or audible) to human beings
* emotional state: the state of a person's emotions (especially with regard to pleasure or dejection); "his emotional state depended on her opinion"; "he was in good spirits"; "his spirit rose"
* intent: the intended meaning of a communication
* liveliness: animation and energy in action or expression; "it was a heavy play and the actors tried in vain to give life to it"
* heart: an inclination or tendency of a certain kind; "he had a change of heart"
* infuse with spirit; "The company spirited him up"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* In religion and spirituality, the term spirit has two core meanings: # The nature and essential substance of human souls, through which each is connected to all others, and by the experience of such connection is a primary basis for spiritual belief. In theological terms, a "spirit" (singular lowercase) is the deepest part of the soul of man, and the transmitting organ by which human beings can contact God. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit

* Spirit was an American jazz/hard rock/psychedelic band founded in 1967. The original lineup of the Los Angeles-based group was Randy California,(guitars) Jay Ferguson (vocals), Mark Andes (bass), California's stepfather, drummer Ed Cassidy, and keyboard player John Locke. The new band was originally named the Spirits Rebellious (after a book by Kahlil Gibran) but was soon shortened simply to Spirit. All but Locke had been part of the band The Red Roosters in 1965. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_(band)

* Spirit is the second album by singer/songwriter Jewel, released in 1998 (see 1998 in music).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_(album)

* Spirit (official designation: MER-A) is the first of the two Mars Exploration Rover Missions. She successfully landed on Mars on January 3, 2004 at 20:35 PST (04:35 UTC on January 4). Her twin Opportunity landed successfully on Mars on January 24, 2004.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_(rover)

* The "Spirits" are an alien race which appear in the sci-fi television show, Stargate SG-1.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_(Stargate)

* Spirit was a Formula One constructor from Britain. They participated in 25 grands prix, entering a total of 25 cars.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_(racing_team)

* Spirit, an album whose multifarious experimentalism owes in large part to the contemporary successes of The Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and Pink Floyd's The Piper at the Gates of Dawn, earmarked the humble beginnings and grand aspirations of its homonymous authors. From sitar strums in "Girl in Your Eye" to dulcet strings in "Taurus", the influences an increasingly meditative society had on the work are obvious. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_(1968_Album)

* Spirit is a Belgian Flemish political party formed after the falling apart of the old moderate nationalistic Volksunie party, and currently forms an alliance (cartel) with the SP.a. The Volksunie separated into two parties, the social liberal Spirit and the centre-right N-VA which forms a cartel with the Christian democratic party CD&V. The formation of a cartel is seen as a way in which Spirit and N-VA can guarantee their influence and position in Flemish and Belgian politics. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_(Belgium)

* This article summarizes the episodes of Season 1 of the television series Alias, created by J. J. Abrams. The series stars Jennifer Garner as Sydney Bristow, a CIA double agent.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_(Alias_episode)

* variously defined as the inmost principle, the divine particle, the vital essence, the inherent actuating element in life. it manifests through association with protoplasm and dwells in the astral body, also called the soul, which in turn is the connecting link between the spirit and the physical body. At death the connection is severed and the spirit will find no ordinary means of manifestation. See SPIRIT.
www.spiritwritings.com/channelingglossary.html

* the overall energy that runs the universe in a harmonious way.
members.aol.com/fadeddragn/dictionary.html

* (spiritus): an essence or extract that can be prepared from another substance as by distillation. If not specified, spirits refer to alcohol (ethanol).
web.lemoyne.edu/~giunta/archems.html

* Social Planning, Intellectual and Recreational Inter-Activity Team of Athabasca University.
www.athabascau.ca/misc/glossary.html

* An entity that is not of the human world. May have once been part of human world, but not necessarily.
blog.oheresy.net/

* used in its capitalized form, Spirit, this term refers to the primal essence out of which mind, energy and matter were manifested. Masters unite with Spirit, and channel its energy to others to unfold their spiritual potentials, purify their vehicles, illumine their minds, and awaken their spirits. Used in its lowercase form, spirit, it refers to the individual spirit.
www.mudrashram.com/glossarypage.html

* (Geist) "The notion of Geist (Mind or Spirit) . . . is the lineal descendant of the Kantian Transcendental Unity of Self-consciousness and of the Absolute Ego of Fichte and Schelling. It also claims a collateral source in the Aristotelian voûs which, in knowing the form of an object, thereby knows itself, and which, in its highest phases, may be described as a pure thinking upon thinking." JN Findlay, Forward, Hegel's Philosophy of Mind vii-viii.
http://www.class.uidaho.edu/mickelse...20Glossary.htm

* http://www.spiritmag.ca/ Spirit is an indigenous magazine that explores the issues that affect our world.
www.mikmaqonline.org/links.html

* A type of energy or radiation, the function of which is to generate essence from existence.
ceh.kitoba.com/glossary.html

* The Chinese describe the Spirit as the part of us which is responsible for our overall sense of purpose and identity. A ‘settled’ spirit also allows us to think clearly and have good concentration, memory and sleep.
www.cicm.org.uk/public/chinesemed/glossary_html

* One of the Four Principles, Spirit, the active, Solar Principle, is the origin of movement and the individual being within the archetype of the Celestial Body. Although it comes second in the hierarchy, it is probably the most important of all, since it represents the impetus to life and experience.
www.yeatsvision.com/Terminology.html

* Original Universal Substance, perfect and untouched, all qualities uncondensed, a primary rate of vibration, the Spiritual Substance used in the bond to soul to pay the soul’s debts.
miriams-well.org/Glossary/

* Synonymous (but not correctly) with angel. (When we say, water, we may not mean the ocean; but when we say, ocean, we mean water. When we say, angel, we do mean a spirit; but when we say, spirit, we may not mean an angel.)
www.angelfire.com/in2/oahspe3/glossary.html

* Sustainable Project Rating Tool
hqda-energypolicy.pnl.gov/glossary.asp

* The Middle Cut collected from the Spirit Still on the occasion of the second distillation with a strength of about 70% abv. It is only after it will have matured in cask for a minimum of 3 year that it will become whisky.
www.celtic-whisky.com/glossary.htm

* Spiral force symbol; Swerving path sign.
ourworld.cs.com/_ht_a/duanekmccullough/gloss2.htm

* A spirit is the soul of a once living person. Spirits can come back to visit the living. Spirits are all around us, and at times, may make themselves known, leaving subtle hints for the person receiving the visit. Spirits can be a type of guardian as well, since they are always watching over us and in times of trouble, will protect us. Spirits differ from ghosts in the aspect that ghosts don’t know that they are dead, and continue on as if they were still living. ...
knorton13.tripod.com/id33.html

* Often used to define the soul of a person, but it can also be used to represent places such as sacred lakes or objects, shrines, and elemental entities.
www.wrexhamparaskeptics.4t.com/definitions.htm

* In the Bible, the creative, animating power or divine influence of God
www.innvista.com/culture/religion/diction.htm

* all basically mean the same thing. We do not prefer to use the terminology "ghost" too often.
www.cprs.info/definitions.htm

* (spirrit) Spirit of St Agnes: passenger ferry operating from St Agnes.
www.scillynews.co.uk/

* rejuvenating, balancing, inspiring, revitalizing
www.susunweed.com/Article_ClarySage.htm

* also refers to the activating or essential principle influencing a person or an inclination, impulse or tendency of a specific kind. Spirit might be restated as a special attitude or frame of mind; the feeling, quality or disposition characterizing something.
home.comcast.net/~ewhiteside/truth/definitions.html

* Spirits are believed to exist in an invisible realm that can only be seen under certain circumstances or by people with special abilities. Unlike ghosts, the term "spirit" is used for demons, angels, fairies, elves and even places. Mountains, woods, lakes, trees and sacred sites are all said to possess a spirit...and in many ancient and indian cultures, this is a living spirit
laurelparanromal.tripod.com/id13.html

* David Leisawitz, Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. SPIRIT is an imaging and spectral Michelson interferometer operating in the mid- to far-infrared region of the spectrum. Its very high angular resolution in the far infrared will enable revolutionary developments in the field of star and planet formation research.
spacenews.dancebeat.info/article.php/20040729221042866

Some of those listed above you could consider with your spells. The ones that caught my eye was the one about the human soul, for the human soul has almost unlimited amount of possibilities where the spiritual life form is existant. To transfer over to that spiritual plane, takes practice and concentration.

Like you said...it is one of the most complicated and hardest element to understand and learn. You can use some of the ideas of the definitions of spirit in your spells.

Like for example:

* the vital principle or animating force within living things

You could use this to TRY to animate the dead (Like the element definition in the BA forum which says "reawakening the dead to do ones bidding").

* the general atmosphere of a place or situation and the effect that it has on people

Perhaps you could some how use this to describe the different possible feelings/experiences/etc. that different people have towards the element, for each person has a different spiritual central source.

* a fundamental emotional and activating principle determining one's character

If you are powerful and wise enough in the spiritual element...I believe you can try to change the feelings of other oppenents with a LOT of will power and time, yet it would be EXTREMELY hard to do so, and could possibly seen as g-ming. These are just ideas, it's up to you.

* any incorporeal supernatural being that can become visible (or audible) to human beings

This can deal with the maneuver you showed me in your evaluation...the ability to transfer from the physical world, to the spiritual world, and then back again.

The rest you can use your own ideas. Actual existing definitions in the real world can aid you in to be a better rper. At least, that's what helped me out and put me where I am today.

Hope that helps...and makes sense.

[Marushia]

I strongly suggest not to take religions into account of our talk on spirit or at least not just yet. I do believe that a particular religion may affect the view on spirit and the comprehension of it. Yet when it does is only to enrichen the view on what is already a mystery.

Two things have always bothered me about Spirit as an element:

1. How do we come to a [non-religious, i.e. (pseudo)scientific] consensus on the definition of what a spirit is (since even in RL it's a highly debated topic)?
2. Given that there is no real formal definition, can one choose to deny its existance and thus negate all related effects?

For instance, I for one deny the existance of a spirit in humans as being anything more than energy or electricity. On that premise, I could come up with a reasonable theory to explain many phenomena but this would severely undermine RPing experiences that are as simple as conjuring a transleuscent green ghost and fighting against it with holy mantras. I'd be willing to concede a level of realism in lieu of a definition similar to Angry's in which the spirit of a thing is an aspect of animism (that is, consciousness), however, in which the spirit is a bit more involved in the world than its real counterpart. But my question is, is that what we're doing? If so, we need to clarifiy how exactly.

Definitions of spirit on the Web

Many of those are conflicting or inconsistant. Again, we need to lay the foundation of what a spirit actually is since no one has any objective sense of it. It's not a thing like fire or water or earth or lightning, etc. where you could show it to someone and give formulas as to how it works. It's a conceptual notion that is often given physical attributes much like God, which is why I question the issue of religion in all this. We can't exactly force all characters to accept a religious notion, nor can we leave it up to people to choose the mechanics of it.

You could use this to TRY to animate the dead (Like the element definition in the BA forum which says "reawakening the dead to do ones bidding").

Depending on how you define spirit, you could rather easily reanimate the dead. It's one of the main themes of Full Metal Alchemist that a soul is the defining characteristic of a human being (as evidenced in Alfonze's soul being attached to a suit of armor) versus merely a homunculus (an animated humanoid form without a soul). Yet the story doesn't actually detail what it is about a soul that makes life different from non-life.

Again, this is a deeply philosophical issue that needs resolving before one can play it.

Perhaps you could some how use this to describe the different possible feelings/experiences/etc. that different people have towards the element, for each person has a different spiritual central source.

Psi is the current realm of emotions, I believe, though you can certainly link the condition of a spirit to the current emotional state, just as the body often is (e.g. when you feel lust, your body is physically different from when you feel depression; perhaps the spirit of a thing changes likewise).

As for perceivable versus not, that would not be a characteristic of a body, but of a free spirit (whatever that is) unless you extend influence of Spirit to overlap with Void in that Void travels through physical realms while Spirit travels through metaphysical ones.

[Bw3nyrgna]

Rereading the definition of Spirit (and especially, the bolded note below it), I can see why this spell would be considered godmoding. First off, you knock the soul out of the body. And while this does not result into immediate death, you do state that most people in their spiritual forms cannot do much and are pretty much helpless. I guess the only ones capable of defending themselves in a spiritual form would be Spirit Elementalists. Would that be correct?

No. They only have to dodge. That spell isn't godmoding. Her also says that most cannot do much. He never says what they can or cannot due. For all we know they can snap right back into their bodys.