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KingPhil
3rd January 2005, 04:44 AM
What do you people out there think the best race and/or the most important acion ie. defensive action, strike action, spy rating or sentry rating?

I think that it is best to focus on your defence and sentry first, therefore I think that dwarves are the best race, but the top player is humans so what do you think?

Shadowfox
3rd January 2005, 05:09 AM
I think elves are best ... because they have actually 50% advantage!
25% on sentry and 25% on spy!

Davie
3rd January 2005, 05:11 AM
just look at the firt 5 pages in the rankings...i reckon 70 percent are human....therefore i think humans are the best.

Gorsameth_
3rd January 2005, 05:39 AM
It depends upon your kind of play. Elves i see as one of the weaker races. if your not going to gain huge amounts of soldiers is Dwarf or Orc. i think Orc is a bit better cause it allows you to steal more gold while as a dwarf it will stop people from attack you but there is always someone who can beat you and one of them will find you. And if your going to have a lot of soldiers take Human. your TBG will make sure you dont even need to attack

Davie
3rd January 2005, 06:47 AM
It depends upon your kind of play. Elves i see as one of the weaker races.


i wouldnt say that elves are weak as they are the best race by far for spy and sentry, non of them are weak as theve all got different qualaties.

Teiresias
3rd January 2005, 07:26 AM
Dwarves are the weakest. They just have little use: if you have much gold it'll be stolen,
Orcs... well I like them but they are only for players who focus on farming for money, which is hard to do nowadays...
Humans.. a good race for people with autobuyers >.> otherwise they'd be farmed often.
Elves... double bonus = best race.
Don't look at the top ranks... Denny would have been dead first if he were elven too, and that counts for all of the players in top 50.

blunderball
3rd January 2005, 07:30 AM
Basically, humans. Gold is the prime resource in KoC, humans have the advantage that they dont need as many soldiers to get the same resources another race does.
Also, the other 3 races have their bonus specified to one stat, humans can spread their bonus around.

Personally, I prefer playing as Orcs - mainly because I like to attack (dont let my current account fool you with its megre SA, I sold off completely mid-october and havent been playing seriously since). I chose humans this age, but I will be using Orcs again next reset.

Baldwin
3rd January 2005, 10:56 AM
If you have a big account (lots of soldiers) then humans is the best.
If you keep your soldier count low, then elves is the best due to the fact that their bonus involves both sentry and spy.
If you want to be not like the rest, then choose orc or dwarf.

Simius
3rd January 2005, 11:05 AM
I think elves are the best, since they have double bonus. I think they would be the best for very large armies as well. With humans you got 25% bonus which can be distributed over 4 stats. With elves you got 25% on two stats, so it looks clear to me.

Baldwin
3rd January 2005, 11:27 AM
I think elves are the best, since they have double bonus. I think they would be the best for very large armies as well. With humans you got 25% bonus which can be distributed over 4 stats. With elves you got 25% on two stats, so it looks clear to me.

false my fellow alliancemember ;)

example

I have 100,000 soldiers being an elf this gives me 100,000 x 28 in tbg being 2,800,000 million tbg per turn

As a human from the same size i would get 3,500,000 mill per turn

suppose that the elve has 12,500,000 sentry and spy 12,500,000

and the human has on both 10,000,000

The elf divides his 2,8 mill on both sentry and spy
the human does the same with his 3,5 mill

The spy/sentrie of the elve will grow like this (1,4 mill = 14 doggies = 15x14 spies= 210 x (1024 + 256) = 268800

The spy/sentrie of the human will grow like this (1,75 mill= 17,5 doggies = 15 x 17,5 = 262.5 x 1024 = 268800


Meaning that my previous post was false too, Humans and Elves are as strong as each other, so I believe that the others are too.

Fenix025
3rd January 2005, 01:10 PM
Humans are the best. The reason for this, is that if you ignore gold stolen from attacks... then they actualy gain +25% to all four stats! It's simple... let's say a non-human player earns enough TBG to buy 4 BPMs, 4 ISs, 4 hooks, and 4 dogs each day. A human player with the same number of men would gain enough to buy 5 of each every day. 4 of each would cost 6,800,000. 5 of each would cost 8,500,000, which is indeed 25% more than the cost of four of each. However, that's not counting gold you earn through attacking... if you gain as much gold from attacking as you do from TBG, then you'd only gain +12.5% to each.

blunderball
3rd January 2005, 02:30 PM
false my fellow alliancemember ;)

example

I have 100,000 soldiers being an elf this gives me 100,000 x 28 in tbg being 2,800,000 million tbg per turn

As a human from the same size i would get 3,500,000 mill per turn

suppose that the elve has 12,500,000 sentry and spy 12,500,000

and the human has on both 10,000,000

The elf divides his 2,8 mill on both sentry and spy
the human does the same with his 3,5 mill

The spy/sentrie of the elve will grow like this (1,4 mill = 14 doggies = 15x14 spies= 210 x (1024 + 256) = 268800

The spy/sentrie of the human will grow like this (1,75 mill= 17,5 doggies = 15 x 17,5 = 262.5 x 1024 = 268800


Meaning that my previous post was false too, Humans and Elves are as strong as each other, so I believe that the others are too.
This also addresses the point that Humans can basically be adapted to act like any other race (since this works with Orcs and Dwarves as well), making them far superior.

Deth
3rd January 2005, 02:58 PM
Orcs are the best, no question about that...problem is, not many people can play with them and to many f*ckers use autobuyers which ruins this game.

Lets say no one usses an autobuyer:

Orcs can get 25% more SA, since getting Sa upgardes is much easier than getting DA upgrades an Orc player can easily outgrow the DA's of other players and start farming them.
Now we all agree that its all about who gets the most cash, well a good Orc does, cuz he might get less TBG then a human, but his pillages should make up for that.
As an Orc you need less weapons to get a nice SA, for the same Sa a human must buy 25% more weapons, and that costs him his 25% extra gold...so humans dont have an advantage over Orcs and other races.
So as an Orc you need les weapons=less repairs=smaller army size (you can train much more spies then others and become small)=more farms (a lot of people train spies/sentries so that they wont get farmed)=more gold=higher stats.

Elves might have 2x 25% bonus, but if an orc does his job well enough he can easily get much more gold and outgrow an elf in Spy/Sentry Rate.


Problem is....many people enjoy spending TBG and dont know how to play as an Orc and to many autobuyers

blunderball
3rd January 2005, 03:38 PM
Attacking, while fun, will never be as productive as TBG, for the simple reason it takes 7.5 hours to get enough turns for 1 decent steal. Someone with a good TBG can get a lot more gold in those 7.5 hours.
Also, whats to say Humans cant bung their 25% extra gold into SA weapons?

(That said - I do enjoy playing as Orcs ^^)

Deth
4th January 2005, 04:37 AM
Attacking, while fun, will never be as productive as TBG, for the simple reason it takes 7.5 hours to get enough turns for 1 decent steal. Someone with a good TBG can get a lot more gold in those 7.5 hours.
Also, whats to say Humans cant bung their 25% extra gold into SA weapons?

(That said - I do enjoy playing as Orcs ^^)

Never as productieve as TBG? I can tell that you are not a very good orc player...cuz in 1 pillage I get my daily TBG and sometimes even 2 or 3 x my daily TBG...yea I guess TBG is better :whistilin

Turns are not a problem if you know how to use em, if you start attacking right after the age starts you will run out of turns and probly waste them on stealin 500k gold. If you can manage your turns well enough you can attack everyday about 5 times for a while and after your turns are almost gone, attack 3x a day.

Humans can use 25% of they money, like I said before they will have the same Sa as orcs...BUT they will have more repairs, so they will get less profit from attacks and it will force them to be bigger cuz they need more weapons and the bigger you are the less farms you have.

blunderball
4th January 2005, 08:27 AM
Never as productieve as TBG? I can tell that you are not a very good orc player...cuz in 1 pillage I get my daily TBG and sometimes even 2 or 3 x my daily TBG...yea I guess TBG is better
Why does the person with the biggest tbg win the game then? (discounting sell offs and masses)

Deth
4th January 2005, 10:02 AM
Why does the person with the biggest tbg win the game then? (discounting sell offs and masses)

Because the people around him are nubs.
Imagin if some of the top players would play as a slayer, and farm Denny/LS/Cooj/Lor...do you know how much gold he could get per day? They have to sleep you know...only problem would be if they would use autobuyers.
Now I know that if they play as a slayer they will get farmed...but do you think tey will lose more money then he will get from Denny? Someone who can beat Denny can get billions off him per day...but no one is willing to play this game, they rather spend TBG and all of em know that as soon as they farm one of the top guys the top guys will simply use autobuyers.

blunderball
4th January 2005, 01:04 PM
Deepack was farming as high as #3 when he got a massive sell-off earlier in the Age, but it didnt help him that much - he moved up a bit, but was never a high flyer because of it. If someone starts attacking you, you just spend more often (Granted some people choose auto-buyers, but those guys need hanging). However, my point is - unless you somehow manage to steal more per day than they are gaining from tbg, you cannot keep up/beat them. So you would need to steal roughly 48x their tbg a day.
If we take the top guys as an example, Denny, last I heard, was getting around 220m per turn. So thats roughly 10.5b a day.
It would be damn near impossible for anyone to steal that much gold a day for a sustained period of time (never mind make that much profit). They would also need to put all of it into SA to prevent Denny out growing them. So that would mean they would need to get more than that ammount of gold to keep up in other stats as well.
The problem with attacking is that you need 7.5 hours to get a good hit - and unless you make 15x your tbg in profit, it is hardly progress. And for the larger accounts, that is almost impossible.
Earlier in the age I was ranked between 200-250 for a sustained period of time, I had a tbg of roughly 1.4m - I was heavily SA biased and would attack as much as possible (2, maybe 3 times a day at best thanks to a lot of the auto-buyers out there), so I would need to make roughly 15m profit from each attack. Usually, the best I could find was 5-10m.

Ask any top 1,000 player and 95% will give you a similar answer, it is very hard to get anywhere without a good tbg to back you up.

Lord_Galdor
4th January 2005, 01:09 PM
What do you people out there think the best race and/or the most important acion ie. defensive action, strike action, spy rating or sentry rating

As for the best race, this is not a matter of opinion. It is known that Humans (still) are the best race in Kings of Chaos, closely followed by Elves (who were the worst race last age), followed by both Orc and Dwarves (equal in quality).

You can calculate this but do not underestimate it. There are a lot of factors you should take in account. It takes some devotion and good thinking to come up with a good outcome. Maybe I will post one later...


I think that it is best to focus on your defence and sentry first, therefore I think that dwarves are the best race, but the top player is humans so what do you think?

As for the stats, they are all equally important if you ask me. Everything depends on the way of playing. Although it is indeed recommanded that you work on DA and Sentry first, except if you chose to play a sabotage account. There is not much of a discussion about this, simply a matter of opinion.

KingPhil
5th January 2005, 06:46 AM
I think elves are best ... because they have actually 50% advantage!
25% on sentry and 25% on spy!

Good point I never thought of it that way. :)

Deth
5th January 2005, 06:58 AM
Deepack was farming as high as #3 when he got a massive sell-off earlier in the Age, but it didnt help him that much - he moved up a bit, but was never a high flyer because of it. If someone starts attacking you, you just spend more often (Granted some people choose auto-buyers, but those guys need hanging). However, my point is - unless you somehow manage to steal more per day than they are gaining from tbg, you cannot keep up/beat them. So you would need to steal roughly 48x their tbg a day.
If we take the top guys as an example, Denny, last I heard, was getting around 220m per turn. So thats roughly 10.5b a day.
It would be damn near impossible for anyone to steal that much gold a day for a sustained period of time (never mind make that much profit). They would also need to put all of it into SA to prevent Denny out growing them. So that would mean they would need to get more than that ammount of gold to keep up in other stats as well.
The problem with attacking is that you need 7.5 hours to get a good hit - and unless you make 15x your tbg in profit, it is hardly progress. And for the larger accounts, that is almost impossible.
Earlier in the age I was ranked between 200-250 for a sustained period of time, I had a tbg of roughly 1.4m - I was heavily SA biased and would attack as much as possible (2, maybe 3 times a day at best thanks to a lot of the auto-buyers out there), so I would need to make roughly 15m profit from each attack. Usually, the best I could find was 5-10m.

Ask any top 1,000 player and 95% will give you a similar answer, it is very hard to get anywhere without a good tbg to back you up.


Lets think logical.

Every human has to sleep, if someone spends every 30 mins or every hour that person cannot be a human, its simply impossible to stay awake for months.
Now the top players will sleep, but not much wenn they get farmed...lets say they will sleep 3 hours, wake up spend and sleep a few hours and wake up.
Thats possible and I know people who play the game like this.

3 hours = 6 turns, that means
about 1.3bil from Denny
about 700mil from LS
about 400mil from Lor
about 300mil from Cooj

is about 2.7 bil, so if there would be no ab's, a big player like LACN or BB could steal about 2.7 bil per day + their own TBG.
Now Denny would outgrow them quite fast, BUT the others will have a problem, because they have to devide their TBG in 4 pieces, while the attacker spends most of his gold on attack. This way an attacker can easily keep up with his farms.

Now the amount of gold per person I said is just a wild guess, I am sure that cooj and lor have billions lying there, so I think someone who can beat those players can get about 5 bil gold per day, that is if the players dont use ab's, dont get sell-offs and sleep for a few hours like a human is supposed to.

Bout DP...he spends his gold on other stats aswell to have a nice rank and some of the people he can beat use ab's.


very hard to get anywhere without a good tbg to back you up.

How is top 150 with 730k TBG?
That will be my rank if I even out my stats and my TBG has never been as high as now (730k). How I did this? Simple, I attacked about 4x a day and 2 of the 4 attacks were 50mil gold ++. Unfortunatly my best farms started using ab's so its sux atm...but like I said before...without ab's attacking is the best way to play.
I know what I am talking about cuz I am a slayer and I beat people who have 5-8x my TBG and only 2 people have managed to outgrow me and thats because my farms started using ab's and these farms had over 10x my TBG.

blunderball
5th January 2005, 07:33 AM
I agree that attacking is a good way to play the game - and I do prefer to do it myself. However, if you dont have a decent tbg as well (730k is a good tbg to a lot of players) you can find yourself being out-grown too quickly and you can never get the gold you need to keep up. If you can find the targets to make good profit daily, it would be stupid not to attack them.

My point is that while attacking is the most fun way to play - it is by no means the most successful, if it was we would see someone pwning Denny and LS and more slayer accounts in the top 100/50.

teliot
5th January 2005, 08:27 AM
Well next age I'm going to be the all-spy account for my alliance, so of course I will be an elf. ;)

Deth
5th January 2005, 03:24 PM
I agree that attacking is a good way to play the game - and I do prefer to do it myself. However, if you dont have a decent tbg as well (730k is a good tbg to a lot of players) you can find yourself being out-grown too quickly and you can never get the gold you need to keep up. If you can find the targets to make good profit daily, it would be stupid not to attack them.

My point is that while attacking is the most fun way to play - it is by no means the most successful, if it was we would see someone pwning Denny and LS and more slayer accounts in the top 100/50.

It is the most succesfull way of playing if there would be no ab's. If it wasnt for ab's a slayer could easily keep up with his farms and keep farming them.
TBG is nice, but if you can attack and get extra money...why not do that?
A person who doesnt attacks simply wastes extra income.
About 7.5 hours per attack...like I said before...if you know how to manage your turns this will NEVER be a problem.

I think we both know my TBG sux compared to ACTIEVE KoC players.
Go ahead and try to find a player in top 200 who has never had more then 730k TBG, I bet you will only find a few or maybe even non.
BTW I didnt even mention that about 40% of my TBG gets stolen (sleep :) )
So the most stuff I got I got from attacks...and thats why I am 100% sure that attacking is the way, for any size.

teliot
5th January 2005, 03:56 PM
Are you saying that only the top 200 players are active? lol you must have active confused with obsessed.

boriszima
5th January 2005, 08:19 PM
false my fellow alliancemember ;)

example

I have 100,000 soldiers being an elf this gives me 100,000 x 28 in tbg being 2,800,000 million tbg per turn

As a human from the same size i would get 3,500,000 mill per turn

suppose that the elve has 12,500,000 sentry and spy 12,500,000

and the human has on both 10,000,000

The elf divides his 2,8 mill on both sentry and spy
the human does the same with his 3,5 mill

The spy/sentrie of the elve will grow like this (1,4 mill = 14 doggies = 15x14 spies= 210 x (1024 + 256) = 268800

The spy/sentrie of the human will grow like this (1,75 mill= 17,5 doggies = 15 x 17,5 = 262.5 x 1024 = 268800


Meaning that my previous post was false too, Humans and Elves are as strong as each other, so I believe that the others are too.

anybody can back up this math, cuz i cant, my head hurts now :)
this does bring out a good point, which race does offer the best bang for the buck.
from general knowledge humans are and were the best race for past 2 ages (not age 1) as many have mentions they are versitaile






Deepack was farming as high as #3 when he got a massive sell-off earlier in the Age, but it didnt help him that much - he moved up a bit, but was never a high flyer because of it.


Earlier in the age I was ranked between 200-250 for a sustained period of time, I had a tbg of roughly 1.4m - I was heavily SA biased and would attack as much as possible (2, maybe 3 times a day at best thanks to a lot of the auto-buyers out there), so I would need to make roughly 15m profit from each attack. Usually, the best I could find was 5-10m.

Ask any top 1,000 player and 95% will give you a similar answer, it is very hard to get anywhere without a good tbg to back you up.

yeah deepack had no chance of sustaining his sa and farm those guys. i think it took literally days or maybe even one huge sell off from sa to da to overcome his massive SA.

me being in top 1k, i agree with no tbg you cant get anywhere. if it was not for tbg and for huge chains, i woulf once again be in top 50 and not looking pathetic hanging around on 3/4 pages. yeas i know TBG is the way so i click the life out of my mouse :)




ow is top 150 with 730k TBG?
That will be my rank if I even out my stats and my TBG has never been as high as now (730k). How I did this? Simple, I attacked about 4x a day and 2 of the 4 attacks were 50mil gold ++. Unfortunatly my best farms started using ab's so its sux atm...but like I said before...without ab's attacking is the best way to play.
I know what I am talking about cuz I am a slayer and I beat people who have 5-8x my TBG and only 2 people have managed to outgrow me and thats because my farms started using ab's and these farms had over 10x my TBG.

uhm its not always about the TBG, its about how many spies/sentries you have. if you get tons of people and you convert them all to spies and sentries trhat will get you the rank you get. but its about how many soldiers you have total and if they all hold weapons *points to himself

AeonsLegend
7th January 2005, 08:36 AM
I made up a sheet with gold and calculations to the amount of TBG you make and the stats it'll give you.
The result?
Humans make the most money and will have the highest stats. Their stats will be higher also than an elf with the same amount of units. People seem to forget that Spy and sentry requires the actual training of spies and sentries and therefore a loss of TBG.

I play elves and the advantage over my stats are not as great as I thought it would be. Yes I have 25% on 2 stats extra, but how much is this effectively?

Spy and sentry are the lowest stats in the game. 25% on 1,000,000,000 = 1,250,000,000 Power and 500,000,000 +25% makes 625,000,000.
the difference? 250,000,000 to 125,000,000 in rating. So you will gain little extra just because the stats are lower. That's the reason they have a bonus on both stats, this is to even out the bonus orcs get for example. They gain 25% as well, but on a much larger number than elves. So their effective bonus on the one stat is much greater.

teliot
7th January 2005, 03:28 PM
Well it doesn't have to be the smallest stat. For example elves is obviously the best race for all-spy accounts.

sergio666
8th January 2005, 02:44 AM
:worship: :uzi: :minigun: hy you all, i thin you all got right,for elves and humans-elves actually have 50%advantage...spy and sentry.but i prefer to be an orc-i agree that dwarfs are the weakest,there is someone who can stole your gold!

so for me orcs are the best

by you all

KingPhil
17th January 2005, 01:13 AM
Everyone in my school has gone orc, and made the mistake (in my opinion) of only focussing on their attack, for instance I know this one person who had 1million attack and 50 thousand defense.

AeonsLegend
17th January 2005, 03:02 AM
:worship: :uzi: :minigun: hy you all, i thin you all got right,for elves and humans-elves actually have 50% advantage...spy and sentry.but i prefer to be an orc-i agree that dwarfs are the weakest,there is someone who can stole your gold!

so for me orcs are the best

by you all
Humans and evles do not have 50% advantage. It all depends on your playing style. If all advantages could be really expressed on numbers then it wouldn't matter if you actually chose a different race. Elves have no 50% advantage because the stats on spy and sentry are much lower than the other stats so having 25% extra on that doesn't make the same amount of difference for having 25% on SA or DA. Can't think of any reason why I would play dwarves though.

Lor20_RJ
17th January 2005, 05:05 AM
there is a major flaw in your calculations deth.
Say someone would steal my gold for 3 hours worth. they need about 300,000 BPM for that on top of atleast 300k attack -soldiers.
in 3 hours i make roughly 440 million gold.
out of those 440 million you steal in average 75% that is 330 million
the average weapon damage on an attack is about 15, cost per weapon 52 and multiply that with 300k that makes repair costs of 230 million.
that leaves 100 mil
then u also have atleast 3,000 mercenaries to replace - which adds another 10 million off that profit so you are left with 90 million profit in average... that is about 1.2 times my tbg.
so that would be 6 million per turn. say you dont use any turns in the first half of the age and use them all in the second half that'd be 12 mil a turn thats still not nearly making up the gap. and most of us can spend atleast every 2 hours if we have to.

I do not doubt that an account that is roughly half the size of ppl in the top ten could farm them without receiving major selloffs - but he'd not be able to stay with the top ten in da, sentry or spy cuz he'd a) not have the soldiers and b) have to spend all on sa to stay with them and couldnt spend more than saay 5% of his total gold on da or spy/sentry.
Yes, for a top 250 account its easy to play slayer, a top 10 slayer is impossible unless he gets major multi dozen billion selloffs.
If we are such noobs how come we are ranked so much higher than you?
Lor20

Jayson
17th January 2005, 05:55 AM
I am getting God damn sick of people saying that Humans have a huge advantage over every one. The only way the humans can have a huge advantage over everyone is if you have a huge tbg or if you are on top of the god damn rankings. The people in the lower ranks (eg. rank 8,000-100,000) get barely any advantage from being humans because once there tbg has reached a climax they get attacked and lose it all giving them no advantage what so ever. Being the elves,dwarves, or orcs give players a huge advantage in the lower ranks.

As for us high ranked people this is not the case. I would think that the top 400 would not try to attack anyone but would only rely on there tbg. Do you know why this is the case??? Because of fucking autobuyers. These little buggers have ruined kingsofchaos and have led the game to be corrupt and fucked up.

I apologize for the language but it's true and I don't care if I get a warning because I was only showing my feelings towards auto buyers in simple text form!!!

AeonsLegend
17th January 2005, 07:48 AM
there is a major flaw in your calculations deth.
Say someone would steal my gold for 3 hours worth. they need about 300,000 BPM for that on top of atleast 300k attack -soldiers.
in 3 hours i make roughly 440 million gold.
out of those 440 million you steal in average 75% that is 330 million
the average weapon damage on an attack is about 15, cost per weapon 52 and multiply that with 300k that makes repair costs of 230 million.
that leaves 100 mil
then u also have atleast 3,000 mercenaries to replace - which adds another 10 million off that profit so you are left with 90 million profit in average... that is about 1.2 times my tbg.
so that would be 6 million per turn. say you dont use any turns in the first half of the age and use them all in the second half that'd be 12 mil a turn thats still not nearly making up the gap. and most of us can spend atleast every 2 hours if we have to.

I do not doubt that an account that is roughly half the size of ppl in the top ten could farm them without receiving major selloffs - but he'd not be able to stay with the top ten in da, sentry or spy cuz he'd a) not have the soldiers and b) have to spend all on sa to stay with them and couldnt spend more than saay 5% of his total gold on da or spy/sentry.
Yes, for a top 250 account its easy to play slayer, a top 10 slayer is impossible unless he gets major multi dozen billion selloffs.
If we are such noobs how come we are ranked so much higher than you?
Lor20
This is a good post Lor20, but you should explain this not to the people here, but to the people in PR chain as well. I get attacked by people in PR for 14,000,000 Gold or 21,000,000 Gold when they have over 3bill SA. They lose a lot of men and if they have weapon damage (most likely) they will have to spend some turns wasting TBG on repairing.