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guidynas
19th May 2011, 11:28 AM
i wanted to share some thoughts about race bonuses.

first of all here is a list of rank 50 stats of few last ages

Age6
SA 6,601,754,693
DA 3,830,320,498
SP 17,543,305,114
SE 14,635,860,223

Age5
SA 7,631,507,923
DA 4,746,194,549
SP 21,901,169,203
SE 17,219,061,091

Age4
SA 11,377,692,279
DA 6,048,308,272
SP 24,735,331,850
SE 20,241,798,400

Age3 2/3
SA 22,270,441,110
DA 11,644,526,616
SP 58,862,789,600
SE 53,826,108,000

Age3
SA 19,807,257,622
DA 12,368,501,832
SP 41,281,005,480
SE 43,021,312,000

As you can see in all ages SP and SE is always bigger than SA and DA about 2-5 times. Especially this is bad with DA, because it's a lot harder to build and maintain. Even more, having DA is quite useless. At this moment i get hit for ~250m gold by players who has about 4b SA, but i have ~15m DA which is nothing. To hold some more gold you must build a lot of DA, like 8-10b at least (today). And now there is only few players who have that (probably 15-20 at most), others have DA only for keeping rank and newbies away. To maintain big DA you must spend like 2-4 times more gold on sentry than building defense, because otherwise you'll be screwed at first bigger mass on you. This is probably why there is so little people playing dwarves.
Same goes for high SA, it must be covered with more sentry, but it's easier to maintain because it can't be broken by enemy. If you want some big hits, better than "average daily hit" (today 229,852,080) you must go big, otherwise you can be fine with ~500m-2b strike for average hits.
So building defense and wasting gold on high strike is useless except for big accounts and rankers.
And whats left? Hording spy and sentry, two most important stats in game. If you want to build any stat, first you must cover it with spy, otherwise it's no use of it.
So it is obvious why most people chooses to play elves (40-50% through different ages), because you must spend 3-4 times more gold on spy/sentry than on defense/attack. This difference on gold spent is so huge, that those 20% bonuses on other stats is funny.
Orc bonus seems fair, considering the fact that attack/spy cannot be broken instantly after sab. And it's probably main choice for people who don't play a lot or are just random bullies like me. And don't forget few slayers who always try to get those 10m tff players.
Human bonus :lol:, probably just a little better than dwarves and only good for peaceful rankers or very big accounts. Removing tbg bonus from humans made them equal on how fast they can generate gold for UP and other upgrades. Also human population is slowly diminishing other the ages. Giving back their tbg and adding bonus would improve that.

cavalier5
19th May 2011, 12:05 PM
i only have a 30.9 bill da which is ranked 5 and my 32.9 bill se is ranked 15. There is a large rank discrepancy between the two stats, mostly because da gets sabbed and broken easily and is wiped out quickly in wars unless you have a large se like me and can actually protect your da. Also not mean ppl go for a large da since mine has been ranked 5-6 fairly consistently and i havnt put to much money into it recently.

guidynas
19th May 2011, 12:48 PM
i only have a 30.9 bill da which is ranked 5 and my 32.9 bill se is ranked 15. There is a large rank discrepancy between the two stats, mostly because da gets sabbed and broken easily and is wiped out quickly in wars unless you have a large se like me and can actually protect your da. Also not mean ppl go for a large da since mine has been ranked 5-6 fairly consistently and i havnt put to much money into it recently.

Exactly. You must always keep building sentry to keep up and not da. And that 31b da should be enough to finish age in about same rank, no point in building it further or waste race bonus on it.

cavalier5
19th May 2011, 01:22 PM
exactly i after the UW war i was like what should i buy, da is pointless since top sa's are 15 bill plus ahead of me and next highest sa is only 25 bill, my se is high enough so i bought spy and its a decent rank so im like ill rank and crap. easily sabbed da makes it way to easy to get and hold a high da rank if you actually have a lot of se.

andyt683
20th May 2011, 03:40 PM
As you can see in all ages SP and SE is always bigger than SA and DA about 2-5 times.

This is an apple, and this is an orange. As you can see, the orange is always bigger than the apple. Therefore, it's unbalanced.

You're looking at the stats incorrectly. The only comparisons needed are SA:DA and SP:SE. As long as those stats are roughly the same as their counterparts, everything is balanced. Unfortunately, this is not the case, but probably not for the reasons you describe. The other thing to look at would be the overall % of top 50 for players of each race.

FallenOne
20th May 2011, 04:15 PM
the reason spy/sent is always way higher is because of their importance compared to da/sa. sentry allows ALL the stats to exist and spy has the power to knock down other people's stats and makes SA have a use. SA and DA themselves only have one benefit unlike the other two.

it's all about the numbers; even if you nerfed the elven bonus and reduced spy/sent strength i think people will just invest more into it because of its sheer importance.

guidynas
21st May 2011, 03:25 AM
This is an apple, and this is an orange. As you can see, the orange is always bigger than the apple. Therefore, it's unbalanced.

You're looking at the stats incorrectly. The only comparisons needed are SA:DA and SP:SE. As long as those stats are roughly the same as their counterparts, everything is balanced. Unfortunately, this is not the case, but probably not for the reasons you describe. The other thing to look at would be the overall % of top 50 for players of each race.

In my opinion: you must spend ~3/4 of your gold for covert ratings and only ~1/4 for SA/DA. Spending race bonuses and bonus points on SA/DA is just a waste, because these bonuses are percentage bonuses. You must spend them for biggest stats you have, and this means arming coverts.

Age6 top50
6/50 dwarves
9/50 orcs
11/50 humans
24/50 elves (4 elves in top5 and 7 in top10)

Age5 top50
5/50 dwarves
6/50 orcs
9/50 humans
30/50 elves (4 elves int top5 and 8 elves in top10)

as i can see roughly same "balance" is in all ages, especially in age4 (http://ruinsofchaos.com/history.php?gameid=12&sort=rank&order=asc) where top10 are only elves and 15 elves in top20. People understand that selling of to elven account is most efficient and has most chances to reach the top ranks.


the reason spy/sent is always way higher is because of their importance compared to da/sa. sentry allows ALL the stats to exist and spy has the power to knock down other people's stats and makes SA have a use. SA and DA themselves only have one benefit unlike the other two.

it's all about the numbers; even if you nerfed the elven bonus and reduced spy/sent strength i think people will just invest more into it because of its sheer importance.

Yes, to have a chance to play you must mostly invest in coverts and only then start thinking about SA/DA, otherwise you're just a sitting sab target.
Every age this always turns out to sentry/spy race, and if you choose not to play elves, you kinda handicap yourself.

andyt683
21st May 2011, 05:27 AM
In my opinion: you must spend ~3/4 of your gold for covert ratings and only ~1/4 for SA/DA.

That is unfortunate, but a side effect of the "We must have a tool to knock down bankers" mindset. Defensive powers are always a higher ROI than offensive ones, simply due to the limited activity of every account. I did think of a system to fix this, but it isn't an idea that could be brought to RoC.

guidynas
21st May 2011, 06:01 AM
That is unfortunate, but a side effect of the "We must have a tool to knock down bankers" mindset. Defensive powers are always a higher ROI than offensive ones, simply due to the limited activity of every account. I did think of a system to fix this, but it isn't an idea that could be brought to RoC.

How about this idea:
Maybe adding possibly to attack people's weapons instead of gold would change a thing. Attacking weapons using your strike action against defense would inflict massive damage on enemy (much bigger than sabotage because of limited turns). This could work together alongside with sabotage. While you have some attack turns you can destroy weapons directly, when no attack turns left -> just sabotage. This would force people to buy some defense against attacks on weapons.

Anyways if nothing changes dramatically, you'll have two more people playing elves instead of orcs :)