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OutlawDragon
5th August 2010, 10:12 PM
One of the biggest problems with the game is that it's not balanced. People are buying way more spy and sentry then SA and DA. More people play as elves then orcs and dwarves combined. Sentry, instead of DA, is the stat of choice to help you hold your gold. I started to think about why it was like this and I came up with a theory.

My theory is that DA is the whole problem. Because people don't have any DA, no one needs any SA to get good hits. If it is not needed then no one is going to buy it. When you get basically the same gold with 100M SA that you get with 5B SA, what's the point in spending gold that could go into your spy or sentry on SA?

Now it's pretty obvious why no one is getting DA, it gets sabbed away as soon as you buy it. Buying DA is not worth it unless you have a huge sentry and a huge TBG, because only then will you be able to stay above the sabbers and maintain your DA. Otherwise your DA is gone as soon as you buy it. Now I'm not saying that is the case 100% of the time but even for the alliances that are not at war most of the people are not buying much DA because they know if anything happens its going to be gone very very quickly.

So people aren't buying DA because its not worth it. People aren't buying SA because no one is buying DA. Which means everyone is spending all of their money on spy and sentry, which is making it even harder to hold any DA. It's one big circle. So how do we fix it?

We make it worth the gold to buy DA again. The way to do that is to make it so that you can only sab 50% per sab of the amount of DA that you can sab versus the amount that you sab from the targets SA. For example if you can sab 10M worth of rouen's SA per attempt, you can only sab 5M worth of his DA per attempt. This should make it a lot easier to get DA and hold on to it.

Now sabbers are going to be like WTF?!?!? THIS IS THE WORST IDEA EVER!!!! It gets even better. To help DA out even more move the sab damage per attempt on Spy and Sentry to the same amount as on SA. (but still keeping the repairs instead of breaking them) So that if rouen loses 10M worth of SA per sab attempt he also loses 10M worth of spy and sentry per attempt, while only 5M DA per attempt.

Now the sabbers most likely are thinking that they are going to quit if this ever really happens. But, I have an idea on how to level this out so that it is not all "pro ranker" Remove the repair costs that you get while sabbing. This is going to make it so that sabbers aren't doing billions in damage to themselves during a war. I think its a fair trade. Rankers are going to be able to hold more DA and be able to do more damage to the sabbers because of how much they can sab from Spy/Sentry, while Sabbers are going to stop doing billions in damage to themselves and will only be taking the damage that people do to them and will be able to get higher sab stats because they'll be able to sab spy and sentry at the same rate as SA

This should help fix that circle. People are going to be buying more DA because it will be worth it again. Because people will be buying DA everyone will be buying SA because they will need it to get the good gold. Because everyone will be spending more gold on SA and DA less gold will be spent on spy and sentry. That will bring balance back to the game.

What do you think?

unlimited
5th August 2010, 10:17 PM
I think this is a better solution:

1) Break sentry the instant it is sabbed. For both spy and sentry remove the weapons, don't just damage them. You sab less sentry than you do DA - make it equal by making spy/sentry weapons destroyed. Spy weapons are destroyed, as always, on recon and sab.

2) Increase the amount of coverts killed when you have low defense - so in other words make it based on SA/DA ratio, but create a further penalty for very large (100:1+) ratios. That way you have to buy DA so your coverts are not massed away.

Oh, finally:

3) Make the recon requirement 1/10 while keeping sab as it is (1/3 for a realistic shot 1/4 for an outside shot). This means that your sentry cannot defend your gold that well alone; you will need DA and sentry to hold gold.

LordFeril
5th August 2010, 10:38 PM
I like the increase of how much someone can recon, that is a great idea...as for the weapons being broken and gone, thats a nasty thing.
I just bought 5b worth of sentry, and if that were the case, I'd be down 5b gold and not just the 2.2bil repair bill....and when it comes to a smaller account and being massed by 20 people...that would be an instant player lost forsure. And isn't that what we are trying to prevent?

I like the idea of covert weaps losing just as bad as off/def weaps.

Another thing that I loved was the double effect. Where your Overall Rank, had to be greater then your Spy Rank and you got a double ammount sabbing. That would be a way to have sabbers going for other weapons as well and not just covert cause they would be getting alot more damage when sabbing if they could hit people for 2x the ammount each attempt.

I'm not really a sabber, and most know that, but when its needed, it certainly sucks sabbing someone with only spy and failing 90% of the time for some unknown reason because their SE is so low the game pities them.

Overlord
5th August 2010, 11:18 PM
You're missing the part about SA being overpowered here too OutlawDragon.
People also won't buy DA because its so easy for someone's SA to outrun them.
This is mostly due to the huge imbalance in the cost of Siege/Fort upgrades.
5x Siege = 1.3b gold.
5x Fort = 10.4b gold.

And its a lot easier to hold your SA when getting sabbed, as you can easily recycle it.

So as a little change to what you've described, I think SA/DA should also be instantly broken when sabbed.

t0msky
6th August 2010, 03:16 AM
sounds like you have just described koc to me.
if you want your spy/sa/sentry instantly broken, simply log onto koc and enjoy

Vrasp
6th August 2010, 04:36 AM
I'd personally rather see full damage to Strike/Spy, while Defense/Sentry get the reduction, and still require breaking. I remember going over this in the past though c.c;

Valheru_Prince
6th August 2010, 07:30 AM
3) Make the recon requirement 1/10 while keeping sab as it is (1/3 for a realistic shot 1/4 for an outside shot). This means that your sentry cannot defend your gold that well alone; you will need DA and sentry to hold gold.

That would be great. And it's not that bad since you can still only recon 10 times a day. So reconning was very limited to begin with.

skynet
6th August 2010, 01:19 PM
I'd personally rather see full damage to Strike/Spy, while Defense/Sentry get the reduction, and still require breaking. I remember going over this in the past though c.c;

i find myself agreeing with you on this..

sentries should die protecting against recons / sab as spies do on making recons / sab missions

Juvi9le
6th August 2010, 03:23 PM
You are all wrong, the best account to play if you are a ranker is the Dwarves account, this is if you are the main. That is as far as i am going to go with it. You do the math and calculate it ;) Huge advantage, then orcs... You just need to know how to calculate it ;P

Vrasp
6th August 2010, 03:29 PM
You are all wrong, the best account to play if you are a ranker is the Dwarves account, this is if you are the main. That is as far as i am going to go with it. You do the math and calculate it ;) Huge advantage, then orcs... You just need to know how to calculate it ;P

Or you're just wrong. The 70% defense boost doesn't mean much when no one else is buying it and when Elves get overpowered bonuses. You do the math and realize your mistake.

Jerre
6th August 2010, 03:48 PM
Or you're just wrong. The 70% defense boost doesn't mean much when no one else is buying it and when Elves get overpowered bonuses. You do the math and realize your mistake.

50 % defense boost.

Grtz, Jerre

R1DD1CK
6th August 2010, 05:04 PM
More than 50% if you put all your bonus points into your DA stat.

Vrasp
6th August 2010, 05:17 PM
50 % defense boost.

Grtz, Jerre


More than 50% if you put all your bonus points into your DA stat.

What R1DD1CK said.

Overlord
6th August 2010, 10:34 PM
You are all wrong, the best account to play if you are a ranker is the Dwarves account, this is if you are the main. That is as far as i am going to go with it. You do the math and calculate it ;) Huge advantage, then orcs... You just need to know how to calculate it ;P

Its not purely about the race bonuses.

Juvi9le
7th August 2010, 06:49 PM
In the end, when your account is worth trillions, yes it is. the more you can save the better it is. I think there is something like 18% or close, 18% over 50 is a lot better then 18% over 25. even if you get two 25%.

In the end, it pays off, surely right now it probably doesn't except you would own any SA whore that tries to past you, if you are the leader of a decent alliance...

Vrasp
7th August 2010, 07:14 PM
In the end, when your account is worth trillions, yes it is. the more you can save the better it is. I think there is something like 18% or close, 18% over 50 is a lot better then 18% over 25. even if you get two 25%.

In the end, it pays off, surely right now it probably doesn't except you would own any SA whore that tries to past you, if you are the leader of a decent alliance...

Nope, you're simply wrong.

If you do all 14 (most people only get 14, but there's 15 total) in defense on a dwarf, you end up with a total of a 71% bonus.

If you go Elves and put all 14 into either spy or sentry, you get a total of a 67.5% bonus. Couple that in with having to train less men to spy/sentry throughout the age, meaning you have more men elsewhere for more TBG, and, well, the Dwarf bonus just doesn't seem that special.

Not to mention you're getting a bonus in two stats rather than one that no one buys...

Sorry bud, you're just wrong.

OutlawDragon
7th August 2010, 09:26 PM
Nope, you're simply wrong.

If you do all 14 (most people only get 14, but there's 15 total) in defense on a dwarf, you end up with a total of a 71% bonus.

If you go Elves and put all 14 into either spy or sentry, you get a total of a 67.5% bonus. Couple that in with having to train less men to spy/sentry throughout the age, meaning you have more men elsewhere for more TBG, and, well, the Dwarf bonus just doesn't seem that special.

Not to mention you're getting a bonus in two stats rather than one that no one buys...

Sorry bud, you're just wrong.

I agree 100%

unlimited
7th August 2010, 10:02 PM
I agree 100%

And, not just that, but I think that almost 100% of players that "don't know what they want" agree.

andyt683
8th August 2010, 07:53 PM
And, not just that, but I think that almost 100% of players that "don't know what they want" agree.

"Really bad about knowing what they want" applies to game changes. The quoted text was simply theorycrafting about comparative bonuses. I agree with the analysis that 3.5% bonus to DA hardly is a fair trade for being able to have more TBG soldiers for the same SP/SE. Racial bonuses may see an overhaul next round; it'll depend on you guys doing more math like the above (only for new changes, not old bonuses). Yes, I'm asking you to help do the work for me. Hopefully a little theorycrafting will fix any overpowered bonuses, and give a more consistent and balanced experience.