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TheGeist_LaCN
8th December 2009, 04:15 AM
Well, I think that the letters need to be made more clearer. When what looks like to be a clear C can turn out to be a G, O or even an S.

UMIST
8th December 2009, 05:42 AM
is that is the case then press spacebar and it will skip that image :)

ThomasA
8th December 2009, 05:54 AM
I agree with the OP. I get too many misclicks even when you think you know what the image is.

There's also the issue, does the skipped link get requeued?

Shane-
8th December 2009, 11:55 AM
ThomasA - It should do, Yeah



Shane

fistsofthor
8th December 2009, 12:36 PM
ThomasA - It should do, Yeah



Shane

do you know if the recruiters have your misclicks come around again too?

Shane-
8th December 2009, 12:39 PM
KoC will allow a link to be "successfully" clicked 5 times a day, Skipping and missclicks don't count as successful clicks, After a missclick, The id should still be in the que


Shane

BuGz
8th December 2009, 09:28 PM
is that is the case then press spacebar and it will skip that image :)


This doesn't make any sense.

He is referring to the images that you are SURE is a C, but ends out being an O / G / S.

Why would you skip it if you are certain to what it is?

Then you have to fill out a 32-paragraph Recaptcha because a C was actually an S.


I'd love clearer captchas, or back to number captchas, but the 2-word Recaptchas are the worst part; and they are no more secure than a 3-letter captcha, so they aren't even necessary.

fistsofthor
8th December 2009, 09:34 PM
This doesn't make any sense.

He is referring to the images that you are SURE is a C, but ends out being an O / G / S.

Why would you skip it if you are certain to what it is?

Then you have to fill out a 32-paragraph Recaptcha because a C was actually an S.


I'd love clearer captchas, or back to number captchas, but the 2-word Recaptchas are the worst part; and they are no more secure than a 3-letter captcha, so they aren't even necessary.

well, the purpose of the 2 letter captchas are this:
the people with OCR get to breeze through them, making their lives easy.

99.5% of koc has to get irritated by it, and spend 5 seconds trying to figure the darn thing out, the next couple typing it, and then while waiting for koc to tell them that nope, you were secretly wrong. that vertical line with the strike-through line through it is actually an "l", not a "t."

but yes, i agree that we should make the captchas easier on humans without making it easier on the ocr folks. i mean, if we changed our secondary captcha, at least the programmer would have to spend 5 minutes writing an OCR program, and then maybe several hours redistributing it to the cheaters using it.

BuGz
8th December 2009, 09:39 PM
well, the purpose of the 2 letter captchas are this:
the people with OCR get to breeze through them, making their lives easy.

99.5% of koc has to get irritated by it, and spend 5 seconds trying to figure the darn thing out, the next couple typing it, and then while waiting for koc to tell them that nope, you were secretly wrong. that vertical line with the strike-through line through it is actually an "l", not a "t."

but yes, i agree that we should make the captchas easier on humans without making it easier on the ocr folks. i mean, if we changed our secondary captcha, at least the programmer would have to spend 5 minutes writing an OCR program, and then maybe several hours redistributing it to the cheaters using it.

You mean the 2 word captchas, not the 2 letter ones, right? (I don't recall 2 letter captchas).


And it's been covered time and time again that the cheaters don't have any more trouble cracking a 2-word captcha (especially Recaptcha, which has already been publicly cracked) than they would cracking a 3-letter captcha; so its causing unnecessary fuss for humans clicking while not really affecting cheaters.

If you have the programming knowledge to break captchas, a few extra letters isn't going to stop you.


If the admins are resolute in not getting rid of recaptcha, at least make it not pop up for ONE misclick. Perhaps every 5-10 misclicks, or 3 misclicks in a row, or something like that, pop up 1 recaptcha.

And even on top of that, I still say get rid of the 2-word recaptcha and get a secure 3-letter captcha for misclicks.

fistsofthor
8th December 2009, 10:02 PM
You mean the 2 word captchas, not the 2 letter ones, right? (I don't recall 2 letter captchas).


And it's been covered time and time again that the cheaters don't have any more trouble cracking a 2-word captcha (especially Recaptcha, which has already been publicly cracked) than they would cracking a 3-letter captcha; so its causing unnecessary fuss for humans clicking while not really affecting cheaters.

If you have the programming knowledge to break captchas, a few extra letters isn't going to stop you.


If the admins are resolute in not getting rid of recaptcha, at least make it not pop up for ONE misclick. Perhaps every 5-10 misclicks, or 3 misclicks in a row, or something like that, pop up 1 recaptcha.

And even on top of that, I still say get rid of the 2-word recaptcha and get a secure 3-letter captcha for misclicks.

i did mean 2 word captchas. those things are annoying. Also, whats with displaying numbers in the recaptcha that do not even need to be typed? its just kind of silly.

ThomasA
8th December 2009, 10:14 PM
the recaptcha project serves 2 purposes. 1 security and 2 helps converting text books that have been scanned, by humans correcting words that their ocr program cant understand, hence some obscure words/phrases in them.

Its by design, rather than a flaw.

BuGz
8th December 2009, 10:17 PM
the recaptcha project serves 2 purposes. 1 security and 2 helps converting text books that have been scanned, by humans correcting words that their ocr program cant understand, hence some obscure words/phrases in them.

Its by design, rather than a flaw.

If their OCR program doesn't know what the words say, how do they determine if the human typed it right or not?

And regardless, I'm not here to correct words for a program, pay me if you want me to do that, I'm here to play a game.

3-letter misclick captchas plz :)

ThomasA
8th December 2009, 10:20 PM
If their OCR program doesn't know what the words say, how do they determine if the human typed it right or not?

And regardless, I'm not here to correct words for a program, pay me if you want me to do that, I'm here to play a game.

3-letter misclick captchas plz :)

Thats why there are 2 words, it understands one and if you get that right it assumes you got the 2nd (what the ocr program cant recognise) as well and if enough people enter the same for the 2nd it will eventually accept it as being correct in their system.

fistsofthor
8th December 2009, 10:21 PM
the recaptcha project serves 2 purposes. 1 security and 2 helps converting text books that have been scanned, by humans correcting words that their ocr program cant understand, hence some obscure words/phrases in them.

Its by design, rather than a flaw.

is that why the recaptcha will still accept what you type even if its slightly wrong sometimes?

BuGz
8th December 2009, 10:23 PM
Thats why there are 2 words, it understands one and if you get that right it assumes you got the 2nd (what the ocr program cant recognise) as well and if enough people enter the same for the 2nd it will eventually accept it as being correct in their system.

So is KoC getting paid to use the Recaptcha system then?

ThomasA
8th December 2009, 10:27 PM
The unrecognised word you can type anything for. The recognised word has a 1 letter tolerance I believe.


So is KoC getting paid to use the Recaptcha system then?

I havent read anything to suggest that you get paid for using the system. I assume it is a free project.

BuGz
8th December 2009, 10:30 PM
I havent read anything to suggest that you get paid for using the system. I assume it is a free project.


Well then I don't see the purpose in helping the project if its no more secure than (even less secure than some) 3 letter captcha alternatives that are less of an annoyance to the KoC playerbase.

ThomasA
8th December 2009, 10:33 PM
In theory, when it gets cracked. The project should update their security mechanism. This means the Admins dont have to maintain their own system + they might want to do something helpful.

BuGz
8th December 2009, 10:36 PM
In theory, when it gets cracked. The project should update their security mechanism. This means the Admins dont have to maintain their own system + they might want to do something helpful.

It's been cracked for some time though, and so far, no updates in their security.

If they updated it themselves, then I'd see reason to keep using it.

fistsofthor
8th December 2009, 10:40 PM
In theory, when it gets cracked. The project should update their security mechanism. This means the Admins dont have to maintain their own system + they might want to do something helpful.


Or, the admins could create a forums where people write captchas in some weird competition to see who can make the safest, hardest to crack, 3 to 5 letter captcha that a human can easily recognize. If this forums had enough activity that a new captcha program was submitted every half hour or so, and KoC was set to always use the most recent captcha system, then wouldn't KoC's captcha system be some level of unbreakable. I mean, it would be pretty difficult to beat such a system.

Although, where those forums were might need to be a secret.

Well, anyways, thats my idea about how to create a good captcha: have it get rewritten every 5 to 30 minutes such that during the time the OCR guy is sleeping, koc is free, and then its also free for 5 to 10 minutes every 5 to 30 minutes while the OCR guy tries to break the captcha system.

Anyways, it would probably be interesting.

BuGz
8th December 2009, 10:42 PM
Or, the admins could create a forums where people write captchas in some weird competition to see who can make the safest, hardest to crack, 3 to 5 letter captcha that a human can easily recognize. If this forums had enough activity that a new captcha program was submitted every half hour or so, and KoC was set to always use the most recent captcha system, then wouldn't KoC's captcha system be some level of unbreakable. I mean, it would be pretty difficult to beat such a system.

Although, where those forums were might need to be a secret.

Well, anyways, thats my idea about how to create a good captcha: have it get rewritten every 5 to 30 minutes such that during the time the OCR guy is sleeping, koc is free, and then its also free for 5 to 10 minutes every 5 to 30 minutes while the OCR guy tries to break the captcha system.

Anyways, it would probably be interesting.

That sounds extravagantly hard to maintain, and somewhat unnecessary, I don't think cheating on KoC is that big of an issue.

As a matter of fact, I think the captchas irritated the players is more of an issue than possible cheating, considering increasingly irritating captchas aren't increasingly secure.

fistsofthor
8th December 2009, 10:57 PM
That sounds extravagantly hard to maintain, and somewhat unnecessary, I don't think cheating on KoC is that big of an issue.

As a matter of fact, I think the captchas irritated the players is more of an issue than possible cheating, considering increasingly irritating captchas aren't increasingly secure.

Well, yes that system would be hard to maintain. However, it would also be very hard to break. As a result, it probably would not be used just for koc. It would probably be used for a variety of places.

TheGeist_LaCN
9th December 2009, 01:42 AM
Well I think this can be solved it two ways...

1. Change back to numbers
2. Make all the letters block letters, not just some.

Lopina
9th December 2009, 03:14 AM
Bringing back to numbers has it's disadvantages:

There are many people who have "normal" numpad, but there are many who don't. By returning to numbers, you will give a hard time to a great deal of KoC's clicking players.
With letters in place, you have an equilibrium. Both number-wise and letter-wise players have almost identical keyboards (identical regarding the position of keys on keyboard).

As for choice for letters, unless meaningful words are given, I'd say that would greatly reduce the click speed.