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View Full Version : Clicking on Age 12



Baigo
16th May 2009, 11:44 AM
The objective of this thread is to discuss how Clicking and Recruiters should work next age. This way if Rocco happens to read this thread, he will also have some feedback about what we want.

This age Artificial Clickback was introduced. I think (not 100% sure) that you get a 0.1% clickback of your morale every 10 minutes. A lot of people liked it as they could click their way to the top. Big accounts could even buy the morale out of everybody and get an insane growth rate. Practically everybody was benefited, some more some less.

However, Artificial Clickback did bring some disadvantages. Before you knew that if you clicked 10, your commander would get 5 and your sub commander 2. However, now this does not happen. Only clicks made by REAL USERS are considered for the commander bonus. Artificial Clickback does not trickle up, and this really brings several dissadvantages.


Artificial Clickback lowers the interdependency. Before getting many officers was very good because you got 50% of what they clicked, but now you hardly get a 20%. I think one of the bases of the game was to find a good team of officers, which is an aspect that will start to dissappear. In addition, growth deals are difficult to plan because you never know how much soldiers you are getting from your officers.
If you can control who people click, you can also control how much more soldiers your commander and sub commander will get via the trickle up effect.
Artificial Clickback slows down the game every 10 minutes.


In order to fix this and if Automatic Clickback was still applied next age, I think the solution is to fix a time when there is a low user activity to give a commulative % of the total morale in the form of soldiers which would also trickle. This way we dont slow down the game every 10 minutes and our commanders would still get benefited out of our clicking.

Discuss :icon_idio

Shane-
16th May 2009, 06:40 PM
Personally, I say that about 25% should be trickled from auto clickback, and the normal 50% from normal click back.


The point of this game was to build a chain/alliance to enhance your own growth (I know this sounds greedy, but at the end of the day, self gain was the root cause for recruiting), if we remove that aspect from the game, the point of a chain in terms of growth faid away.

The big chains will stay together as they've bonded friendship over the ages, but it pretty much makes it a lot harder for smaller chains, or for even new alliances to be formed



Shane

Hibun_th
16th May 2009, 07:53 PM
i like the idea of the cumulative %.. maybe UP should disappear (after all its too small, and too expensive) and replaced by the Artificial Clickback. Then, every 24 hrs you can get a % back of the morale you hold. Plus, it can be trickled up, so you get a percentage from your morale, and a percentage from your officers artifical growth.
^^


ps. btw, i would like UP to be changed for an upgrade of the artificial clickback ^^. That would be intresting.. Maybe you can start with 0% artificial clickback, and go up to 1.2% per hr, 28.2% per day. And i think this shouldnt trickle.. Then, people can actually chose whether they want to trickle or grow alone..., and different strategies can be done.
This way you can limit the huge account's growth, and enhance the growth of the smaller/independent clickers growth (the way infinite clicking did in the past, but without breaking rules, and making it functional for ALL users)

Xzeihoranth
16th May 2009, 10:14 PM
Get rid of UP? That is the dumbest thing that has been uttered yet. Make NO UP, and require you sit in front of your computer for hours on end, clicking. Used to be a choice, now you want it mandatory? Well I'm not going to say anymore.

Perhaps as Shane said a set ammount of auto-clickback can be trickled, that means the more you click, the more that can be trickled. Having auto-clickback being an upgrade would only benefit those under Head Accounts that also have a large list of officers (if the upgrade were to be expensive such as UP is now) to accumulate enough gold to increase the upgrade, that would make the smaller accounts relatively useless to their commanders and chain, as they would not be able to afford a high "trickle % upgrade".

I like the idea of this thread, perhaps more suggestions would help.

Hibun_th
16th May 2009, 11:00 PM
UP is wrothless.. max is too small and too expensive.

and not a % trickle.. its an upgrade of the Artificial Clickback % per 24hrs. This way people can chose wether they want to trickle their commander more or, grow individually more. It inspires teamwork, or helps people work alone and still be strong.

DL-JayBagz
16th May 2009, 11:24 PM
UP isnt worthless.

Xzeihoranth
16th May 2009, 11:55 PM
Without UP, many smaller accounts couldn't grow AT ALL, because some of us simply do not have the time to sit down EVERY day or even 2 times a week to click, and without that with no UP, we would sit and sit with no growth at all. With the increase in TBG per unit, UP is more worthy than it was before

BloodBullet
17th May 2009, 03:44 AM
make it numbers again?

plasticsheep
17th May 2009, 03:54 AM
UP is wrothless.. max is too small and too expensive.

and not a % trickle.. its an upgrade of the Artificial Clickback % per 24hrs. This way people can chose wether they want to trickle their commander more or, grow individually more. It inspires teamwork, or helps people work alone and still be strong.

An interesting idea, how would you approach changes to playing style during the age? Ie, someone starts out on their own, and chooses to grow individually. They then join a chain and want to start being part of a team - would they be able to undo their change?

Hibun_th
17th May 2009, 03:15 PM
An interesting idea, how would you approach changes to playing style during the age? Ie, someone starts out on their own, and chooses to grow individually. They then join a chain and want to start being part of a team - would they be able to undo their change?

can you ungrade covert levles or siege? lol, they wouldnt be able.. but if you start in an alliance and want to go on your own, then you can upgrade it. plus, its not like you wont be trickling soldiers.. you would be trickling less than others.

and about Up.. small accounts cant even afford UP upgrades.. the biggest Up upgrade is worth liek 700mill and is only about 2-4k right?.. unnecessary unless you get it in the first -second month (which small accounts cant). If you want UP to be usefull, its system shoudl change.. it should be cheaper and infinite.. but then clicking wouldnt be useful lol.. and we know where that ends.

AngelOfWildDog
17th May 2009, 09:35 PM
No UP? That's just asinine. You can say goodbye to the players who don't click because they either don't have time, choose to not click or cannot click due to some computer issue.

UP is a guaranteed growth available to any player in the game that does not depend on clicking ingame or out-of-game recruiters that may or may not work. You can choose to upgrade to 5 UP/day or 640 UP/day and know that you will get those new soldiers without having to worry about clicking or about recruiters or captchas that don't work. UP is one of the most needed upgrades in the game even with the high expense of the 320 and 640 UP upgrades.

I think the recruiting system this age works to the advantage of small players and new players who join later during the age. They have a decent chance of growth that wasn't available before this age's changes in the recruiting system. Granted, the advantage is not great for the trickle and therefore makes recruiting new officers harder and also lessens the desire for some to want to help someone who is not adding to their growth. It also lessens the attractiveness of growth deals and the growth of alliances.

avalon
18th May 2009, 02:48 AM
can you ungrade covert levles or siege? lol, they wouldnt be able.. but if you start in an alliance and want to go on your own, then you can upgrade it. plus, its not like you wont be trickling soldiers.. you would be trickling less than others.

and about Up.. small accounts cant even afford UP upgrades.. the biggest Up upgrade is worth liek 700mill and is only about 2-4k right?.. unnecessary unless you get it in the first -second month (which small accounts cant). If you want UP to be usefull, its system shoudl change.. it should be cheaper and infinite.. but then clicking wouldnt be useful lol.. and we know where that ends.

Actually, 640 UP pays off a little sooner than that... it depends on how often you can bank and if you train all to coverts, but it's certainly worth it even after the first 2 months of a 6 month age.

SatansRtHandMan
18th May 2009, 05:35 PM
I think doing away with UP would spell the demise of the game. There are hundreds of players that depend on UP to build their accounts. As said before, some people just don't have time to spend endless hours clicking to build their accounts and UP is the only way they can gain soldiers.

I do feel, however, that the cost of UP should be lowered a bit so that more players have a chance at the upper UP limits.

sailer13
18th May 2009, 10:55 PM
i agree its a hefty price to pay they should make it a lil cheaper i waited to long so im stuck with 320 when i should of sold off earlier in age to get it

blackness
19th May 2009, 08:46 PM
I would love to see some new form of clickback with the new stuff and like was posted a 25% is ALOT better than what we have now. The point was said earlier and they are right the large alliance then are going to keep taking over this game and we won't see any new alliances since most will just go solo to try to beat others into the top 100 just by clicking and doing it solo. So to help recruiting and to help chains build we do need to be able to have clickback and I honeslty think we need more add ons to friends because as it stands I can't even click all my officers let alone the sub officers. So unless I go out and make my own clicker (I have no idea lol) than I can't even opt to click my own guys using the system the admins have thought to give to me. So really a clicking thing I would like to see our:

1. More % clickback
2. More friends able to be added to click (or hell here is a IDEA let me click the chain I am in lol)

Thats is pretty much it and leave us alone! If the clicker works and your getting your ads views and making your money leave us alone.

sailer13
19th May 2009, 11:24 PM
a feature to click ur whole chain is a great idea i would love to be able to do that

ThomasA
20th May 2009, 10:52 AM
Alliance clicking was removed and the friends list reduced due to this thread: http://www.giveupalready.com/showthread.php?t=70162

I dont envy the admins with all the conflicting suggestions they get, trying to work out which ones are best for the players and which ones should be implemented.

On a separate note, Ive am aware that the recaptcha system has caused problems with some players not be able to clearly identify the 'words'. This especially so for some players who do not have English as their first language and some younger players.

Shane-
20th May 2009, 01:09 PM
Alliance clicking was removed and the friends list reduced due to this thread: http://www.giveupalready.com/showthread.php?t=70162

I dont envy the admins with all the conflicting suggestions they get, trying to work out which ones are best for the players and which ones should be implemented.

On a separate note, Ive am aware that the recaptcha system has caused problems with some players not be able to clearly identify the 'words'. This especially so for some players who do not have English as their first language and some younger players.

Often I find that the words that are presented ain't in English, I've had dutch and German words pretty often.

The recaptcha isn't designed for you to read and understand the word, it is designed for you to enter the matching text, If could say ' dkbsdajn2 ' and you not understand it, you would still however be able to input it, assuming you have a English keyboard, well at least one that supports the typical English alphabet?

I've found that only once/twice a day do I a recaptcha I have problems with, mostly due to the word being too disorientated (IE: half the word covered in a black mask), but this once/twice a day is pretty acceptable, at least I'd rather fail recaptcha twice a day then have to enter a captcha every action I do.

However; recaptcha(security) now isn't involved in clicking anymore, only miss clicking, and the standard person clicking doesn't miss click too often


I think we should mainly focus on the "Important" issues in this thread, that being the recruiter economy, rather than things like recaptcha

Age after age the admins have proven that captchas ain't there strong point, the last thing any of us want is the admins to try and write they own captcha, We'll end up with a really really weak one and have the game full of auto tools again, or we'll end up with a really really hard one which will cause people to complain that its too hard for the young/non native English/old/eye problem people.


Shane

Dragon_Reborn
21st May 2009, 12:19 AM
I don't know how hard this would be.
But it would be nice if KoC could have a built-in recruiter which is as fast as the recruiters out there (like the one in RoC), and with it's own clicking-order purely based on morale.

Always the one with the most morale will be at the top.
Morale is capped at -50, you can not get lower than this (-50 is just an example, it could be -200 or something). You will not gain morale by clicking a person with -50 morale, hence you cannot gain morale by clicking (inactive) people who's in a chain-list in any given out-side recruiter. Users with -50 morale will not appear in the ingame recruiter (However you should still be able to click quite alot in 1 day, just not as much as now). This would remove the somewhat unfair advantage of outside recruiters, and also remove autoclickback, hence giving full effect to trickle again.
It will be more like what it was before the morale system, you didn't click your officers then to gain morale, did you? But you can still click alot to grow.

However this system would create an excess of postive morale after a while, but that only means that there will be more guys to click if you want to click through the whole ingame recruiter list. No more -50k morale.

Just an idea

Shane-
21st May 2009, 12:50 AM
MV - The 'problem' with your 'suggestion' is the amount of active clickers in the game

ClickFeast logs everyones morale, and as of right now, they're 339 people who have positive morale, I'm sure we could all imagine the outrawr most people would have if they could only click(and gain morale) to the sum of 1,695

Saying that, thats now at this stage of the age, but I'm pretty confident that the first few weeks of an age the click list size would still be pretty small.

You, being someone who clicks way too much(lol), surely wouldn't want to be limited to about 2k clicks per day?


Shane

Dragon_Reborn
21st May 2009, 03:48 AM
I don't really click that much Shane lol. Haven't clicked for months I think :(
Don't know why you think so, there's people who's done more than me this age.

Anyways, I see the problem. How about increasing the number of times you can click a person to say 20 times? Say you can do 10k clicks in a given day, sure it might be too little for many, and if it is make sure to click your whole chain (for no morale gain though? I think this was what clicking was about back then). Before the morale thing when I played, 10k clicks in a day was alot, and often impossible without using proxies (ohnoes) or clicking from different places. Increasing it shouldn't really cause any problems, especially if the method I described would be used. But yeah, there's not as many people playing koc now as before though. Taking away some of the benefits of recruiting won't really help bring new players to koc though.

Shane-
21st May 2009, 04:34 AM
Where'as I do agree changing the amount of times you can click a person per 24 hours would be a temporary fix, in the long run it wouldn't be useless.

If for instant, those 339 click each other 20 times per day, they would end up being in negative morale much quicker than they go into negatives now.

Example:
Shane: 6,000 morale
Those 339 people click me 20 times a day each, I end up at negative x pretty fast, those 339 people with morale don't have huge amounts of morale, some only have 50, some have 5k, the numbers range differently, and I'd imagine a percent of those don't click, that they commander/officers have sent them 50-100 or so~. But the point being is a temporary fix isn't going to help.

As well as that, If the admins changed recruiting that dramatically to a degree you can do a click, and not gain morale, that would screw up all external recruiters as external recruiters don't have live morale stats, meaning that in many'a case a external recruiter could give you a click list of people that can't be clicked.

Its been shown already that with external recruiters around, the game advanced and is more "fun" for most people, and grows, If people are getting a percent of they clicks voided due to the admins changing the system, their motivation to click is dramatically going to reduce.

In retrospective to your last statement of "Taking away some of the benefits of recruiting won't really help bring new players to koc though."

Age 10: 11,017 players total
Age 9: 13,278 players total
Age 8: 18,423 players total

Currently:
Age 11: 25,543 players total

This age has been the first age in about 3-4 years that the game has seen actual growth, in terms of amount of players, The mods/admins are pretty active and catch a fair percent of multiply accounts, so nobody can use the "blah blah, 30% are fakes" excuse that was used in the early ages in regards to amount of players.

The game is indeed growing again, so something is going right this age and people are actively recruiting, after all, can any of us really complain with a growth rate of 110%. A lot of the accounts ain't too active, and ain't involved in chains, but we can't expect the admins to do everything.

It is our responsibility to go and recruit the new guys, to get them involved in our chains and get them more active, It is time for the players to make the game better for themselves, to recruit, to build.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't want to see the admins to make dramatic changes to the game, and to start losing a player base again.


Shane


P.s - I got you mixed up with Flanking foot soldier, who does really click too much lol


Edit - Now thinking, maybe an idea is change the 20 messages per hour limit to something a bit higher, so people are able to recruit more?

Baigo
22nd May 2009, 03:28 PM
Age 10: 11,017 players total
Age 9: 13,278 players total
Age 8: 18,423 players total

Currently:
Age 11: 25,543 players total

I think the game didn't grow, the fact is that as the invite email address contacts to play koc is the main responable. If you take a look, there are about 100 KoC pages that are composed by users who hardly spent their initial TBG.

5x a day per user is just fine, why change what is already working?
Artificial Clickback needs to trickle, thats all we need. It should be handed as I said once a day so as to avoid slowing down the server.
Numbers should return instead of letters.

Dragon_Reborn
25th May 2009, 04:26 AM
I've been sitting atop a mountain mediating, and thinking about what you wrote Shane, and you bring valid points. However, I think there are some flaws to your logic. While you call it a temporary fix, I don't believe that is nescessarily true. There will be an excess of positive morale in the game, and this should make it possible for continious clicking, making it fair for all parties. True, somewhere along the line you can't click more that day, and this dramatic change could probably take alot out of the servers(?). But there wouldn't really be any need for automatic clickback, since you can't click your friends/chain (who might allready be in the negatives) etc for positive morale, your postive morale should be turned into soldiers pretty quickly. This is more similar to the older recruiters, and that was the glory-days of koc. Something must have been right at that time.

About it messing up the external recruiters, yeah it would, but that is part of my point in doing this. No longer 100k growth for a guy who never clicked or never had clicking officers. If you want to grow, click yourself and/or recruit clicking officers, everyone got equal chances. And for external recruiters, you would still be able to click those guys in that list, you just wouldn't get +morale for clicking the "inactive" ones. But you would strengthen your chain in the process, and this is something you could do if you wanted to click more than what you could in koc. Clicking your friends and allies/chain, is what clicking was all about in the first place. And I'd be willing to bet that there would be more than 3xx clicking players using that (fast) koc clicker, think about all active koc-players using the same means of clicking.

To be honest I liked the regular clicking system w/o morale better than the morale system, but I think more likes the morale system. I've recruited alot of new people this age, and I will try likewise the next age. But the problem remains with auto-clickback, most of the clicks from a clicking player gets turned into soldiers by auto-clickback. Also there is the problem mentioned above with guys getting 100k growth and more throughout the age, while never clicking having activally clicking offcers.

Shane-
25th May 2009, 08:51 AM
Pfffttt, The suns out, go somewhere warmer to mediate like the back yard/garden with a pint of beer :p

I view this[20x rather than 5x] as a temporary fix mainly because I don't see how it can be a long time fix, all it does is centralize what growth between a select few really active people that click [Like old times], but as that has shown, it has its drawbacks, if we look at any of the recruiters from past ages that uses the old system of having their own morale system, we'll soon see moments where their click list size was only 1-2k max per day. At the start of the ages, and for a month or so they where great, but as soon as people slow down clicking, this is where the problems come into play.

As for your point of screwing external recruiters, I'm not too many sure how many people will agree with you there? How many people want CF, WR, FCF, ACF and YAR offline, be forced to click 100% on the inbuilt system as the only means to gain morale.

Its been clearly shown that external recruiters are the future of this game, we can look at last age (no public external recruiters) to this one where we've got four, and notice a rapid change in how the game has progressed

As I've said, If the admin only allow you to gain +1 morale for people who have positive morale(or above negative x) then external recruiters won't be able to operate due to not having a clicklist of live morale stats. This of course creating forcing a percent of all clicks done via external recruiters to be nulled.

If you would rather force the players to click in a browser, then a lot of people are not going to click, thus the amount of people who have positive morale would be dramatically drop. Thus reducing the size of the list which can be clicked. How many people would click 2,000 aday in a webbrowser, and how long would it take those to click that 2,000? using multiply tabs I tend to get about 35~ CPM, so we're talking about it taking almost an hour to click 2,000 vs 15 minutes to do the same.

You also seem to overexadurate(spelt wrong, if someone can correct it?) the amount of negative morale people get into, right now they're a total of 396 people who have less than -15,000 people, and 1,000 people who have -10,000 A large percent of the people who are in this type of deep morale are due to the start of the ages system not due to external. If we remember correctly, people were getting into negative huge 2-3k before they was recruiters kicking around as the recruit system the admins had implemented was cocked up (This is fixed/changed now), you're holding external recruiters responsible for the majority of the negative numbers, where they ain't as bad as you speak of if you take everything into account. and people certainly haven't gained 100k+ from not clicking, and not having officers

I'll agree though, that external recruiters do have some "evil" to play in making peoples morale even more negative due to the nature they work, But the current recruiters tend to use both they own system aswell as the koc system in an attempt to keep things fair.

If we look at when CF was down for about 3 weeks, when it came back online, they was no soal one chain that benefited from its return, It came back online at approx 4am(gmt), as soon as Bluud (TGF) came online on msn, he messaged me asking if it was back online as his growth has increased x folds, the same story for other alliance heads.

As long as the recruit system is fair, and benefits everyone (And not just one chain), I don't have any problems with it. We all know that the system has its flaws, but it is a lot better than having nothing.

What I (personally) would've liked (and asked for) is: *

A way to collect everyones morale level in one sweep to keep my db upto date, IE: An auto process goes to koc.com/recruiter-list.php and that generates a list of ALL people who can be clicked, something like
Shane -> 5k
MV -> 1k
Someone -> 145
[etc etc etc]

So the clicklists external recruiters use are almost 100% based from koc, and me being allowed to access that list once an hour, so the list is always upto date, this would allow fairness, after all, admins controlling the clicklist, who could complain (well, I know a lot wouldn't mind complaining, but you get the jift.) I've always been against recruiter admins having 100% control of the click lists and have expressed that with Rocco, and thats why I try to make CF/WR/FCF as fair as possible with what I've got at hand....

And, When it comes to "Clicking friends/allies" you'll notice that CF has the option to do that, to only click your chain if you want, I think SR/GTA/LaCN/LoA/Al2 are listed there, they've been the only chains that asked for the feature, I've always been willing to add other chains to the custom list feature if requested (And if they have > x members).

I'm all what ever changes to make the game better, and I don't find your proposals to be "bad", but I look at everything in a logical and practicable way, Like an old saying 'The needs of the view out way the needs of the many' I'm not in favor of screwing a fair percent of people over just to benefit the select few active people.

If they is a fair, practicable and logical way to implement changes that are good for most people, I say why not, but if it involves only being a plus for 500 people, and a negative for others, then it isn't a change worthy to be changed.

As I've said above, they are many many factors to consider in every proposed change

Anddd; If you'd like to continue this in a more personal environment (irc/msn) to make this faster, and a better way to explain each others points, feel free to slap me where/when, or your msn, unless the public want to keep reading these small posts


Shane



*What I got was a way to loop up individual peoples morale, which isn't bad, but doesn't allow me to mass update peoples morale levels all in one go, nor am I able to do it often

fistsofthor
17th June 2009, 05:13 PM
I would like to say a few things. I started this age 2 months late, and had no chain at all, so i had to completely rebuild. Before I got into a fight with lacn a little while ago, I had an 800k tff. That was great.

I am also pleased to see that there are players in the top 100 who do not belong to large chains. The ability of solo-players to do well is excellent.

As for the comment about negative morale players getting clicked by their chain, I have to say is that that is the way it is always been. A commander has every right to click his officers. An alliance has every right to click its players who dont click. In many ways, that is the purpose of an alliance- to click its own members.

As for those players who go on to click random players' links, good for them. I remember that back in the past that the list size was small.

In any case, being able to click more than 5 times seems silly. I remember how it used to be only once per 24 hours not so very long ago.

Yes, there are people who can spend 18 hours a day clicking (and the rest of the time sending recruit pms), and most of those people play RoC. Lets have KoC stick to its principles as closely as possible. I mean, some things need to change, but for the most part, the game has been doing well.

It was an adjustment getting used to the idea that sabbers were no longer untouchable and the unlimited failed recons. It is likely that the drastic increase in numbers may be slightly inflated by the existence of accounts still on the bf that simply are not logged into.

As for the recruit itself, the only change i would make is for the auto-convert morale to trickle up to some degree. If you want it to be somewhere between 20 and 50% that is fine with me, but that morale should trickle. Earlier in the age, I had a commander who had his officers grow over 700k under him, and he grew less than 150k this age counting his coverts. That just seems wrong to me. The system should be sure to do the following:
1) clickers get clicked
2) commanders get rewarded for having actively clicking officers
3) a commander who sends morale to his officer should get half of it back just like in the days of old.


And i would like to thank both shane and zupzupsoup for the hard work that they have put in making legal recruiters that work quickly and honestly,

Thank you for all of your time! You two have been a real asset to the KoC community.