PDA

View Full Version : Undead - Elf comparison



xAre
16th July 2008, 11:17 PM
Had a conversation with Rocco not long ago. I just wanted other people's opinion about it. I removed the parts of the conversation that had nothing to do with it though :p


(Are-) But tell me, yes or no, do you think Elves and Undeads are perfectly balanced in a side-by-side comparison?
(Rocco) nope
(Are-) So you don't think the races are balanced?
(Rocco) but nearly every game i've ever played has had races/classes/whatever that if you put two up to side-by-side comparison you can clearly state differences and imbalance
(Rocco) i think that in general, the races are balanced
(Rocco) in specific situations (or even in general), one race may dominate another

In my opinion they are both covert-based races so they should be quite equal.
Elves is an offencive covert race (+spy)
Undead is a defensive covert race (+sentry)
I really don't see why Undead has the Attack bonus, and why elves have a worse casuality bonus than them.
It doesn't make sense.

In your opinion, are the two races balanced or not? And why?

jog1
16th July 2008, 11:19 PM
I think elves should get a little 20% attack or defence bonus too

the_hitman_9
16th July 2008, 11:25 PM
Elves shld get back the bonus of being able to sab more in one go, so if its 1% maximum per day , it shld be 1.2% for elves or something like that.
That was a bonus they had in previous ages i think. ( Age 5 , other races could sab 12 IS , 10 BPMs and elves could sab 15 IS and 13 Bpms if i remember correctly )

Paradiso
17th July 2008, 12:05 AM
Spy is much more useful than sentry. You can sab a person when your spy is only 1/3 their sentry, and recon them when it's only a fraction as large. spy > sentry in both head-to-head matchups, therefore there is no imbalance.

xAre
17th July 2008, 12:06 AM
Spy is much more useful than sentry. Therefore there is no imbalance.

Thats all relative to the situation you are in really.

Paradiso
17th July 2008, 12:36 AM
Thats all relative to the situation you are in really.

Not really, cuz the sab ratio for example is a set value every time. 1 spy: 3sentry. So really when it comes to sabbing, spy is 3x more valuable

HoMiCiD3
17th July 2008, 02:57 AM
Had a conversation with Rocco not long ago. I just wanted other people's opinion about it. I removed the parts of the conversation that had nothing to do with it though :p



In my opinion they are both covert-based races so they should be quite equal.
Elves is an offencive covert race (+spy)
Undead is a defensive covert race (+sentry)
I really don't see why Undead has the Attack bonus, and why elves have a worse casuality bonus than them.
It doesn't make sense.

In your opinion, are the two races balanced or not? And why?
so are orcs and dwarves even? dwarves have a 50% bonus compared to a 40% bonus. Races arent meant to be perfectly even that would make their bonuses redundant you just gotta choose the race that best suits how you like to play.

Spy is much more useful than sentry. You can sab a person when your spy is only 1/3 their sentry, and recon them when it's only a fraction as large. spy > sentry in both head-to-head matchups, therefore there is no imbalance.

Not really, cuz the sab ratio for example is a set value every time. 1 spy: 3sentry. So really when it comes to sabbing, spy is 3x more valuable
i gotta say this guy is finally makin some sense, spy has their bonus and you only gotta have 1/3 their sentry to sab, to make it even you should have more spy than their sentry and so elves having a spy bonus just makes that even better.

Quasar
17th July 2008, 04:56 AM
Spy is much more useful than sentry. You can sab a person when your spy is only 1/3 their sentry, and recon them when it's only a fraction as large. spy > sentry in both head-to-head matchups, therefore there is no imbalance.

couldn't have said it better myself :raiseroof

DikInABox
17th July 2008, 05:04 AM
orcs - dwarves have differing RACE attributes, which even out over the siege/fort differences (25% - 33%) doesn't it?

el--diablo
17th July 2008, 05:51 AM
I think that at present, things are far too complicated!

All we need is :

Humans 20% Income Bonus
Dwarves 40% Defence Bonus
Elves 25% Covert Bonus
Orcs 40% Attack Bonus
Undead 50% Less Casualties (& a 10% attack bonus or something)

LordCounter
17th July 2008, 06:21 AM
only when you add more and more bonuses races become imbalanced
one is enough

DikInABox
17th July 2008, 09:38 AM
I think that at present, things are far too complicated!

All we need is :

Humans 20% Income Bonus
Dwarves 40% Defence Bonus
Elves 25% Covert Bonus
Orcs 40% Attack Bonus
Undead 50% Less Casualties (& a 10% attack bonus or something)

fort = 25% increase
siege = 33%

Hand of God = 5% increase
Cannons = 5.66666666666667

.:. you wouldn't want orcs and dwarves being even, orcs would win everytime.

Wings
17th July 2008, 10:22 AM
Spy is much more useful than sentry. You can sab a person when your spy is only 1/3 their sentry, and recon them when it's only a fraction as large. spy > sentry in both head-to-head matchups, therefore there is no imbalance.

Smartest thing you ever said in your life..

~cept there is always imbalance, there will only be balance when all races have no or same bonus. Each bonus is the race specialty, the stats will be unbalanced but I guess in general you can say it's almost balanced.

Say compare an Orc slayer with that 40% atk bonus, he has 1000 bpms, then there's this elves slayer with no atk bonus and 1400 bpms. Orcs gain more SA each weapon, and the elves less, but the Orcs lose more SA if he gets sabbed..say, -3 bpms = -1m SA for orcs and -3 bpms = 500k SA for elves. Well, the bonus are there to fit each player's preferred playing style. Basic, slaying people go Orcs or undead, banking people go dwarves or humans, more all-around player or sabbers go elves. PS. Undead's 50% less casualties is so useful especially when slaying with high SA/DA and high tffs.

xAre
17th July 2008, 10:28 AM
so are orcs and dwarves even? dwarves have a 50% bonus compared to a 40% bonus. Races arent meant to be perfectly even that would make their bonuses redundant you just gotta choose the race that best suits how you like to play.


i gotta say this guy is finally makin some sense, spy has their bonus and you only gotta have 1/3 their sentry to sab, to make it even you should have more spy than their sentry and so elves having a spy bonus just makes that even better.

SA is already easier to build than DA. An orc still has the advantage over a Dwarf players DA (if they spend same gold amount).

As for spy vs sentry... Say they both have 100mil spy/sentry before race modifiers, which gives the elf 135mil spy while the Undead gets 135mil sentry.

The Elf would most likely have his sentry whiped out before the Undead, effectively ubergolding the account. With 100/135mil stats you don't really see much difference, but at even higher numbers the difference is there to a bigger extent. The higher you go, the Elf can sab higher and higher Sentries, while the Undead will last longer and longer compared to the Elf, which could mean more damage done to the enemy in total. Neither of them are very prone to massing.. As for keeping the account up during wars, the Undead would be better off, with needing to hold a lesser amount of BPM's to get the SA required to farm the right people.

TL;DR - In a war the Elf would have the advantage if you're looking at it short term, for long term the advantage would shift towards Undead.

HoMiCiD3
17th July 2008, 04:37 PM
SA is already easier to build than DA. An orc still has the advantage over a Dwarf players DA (if they spend same gold amount).

As for spy vs sentry... Say they both have 100mil spy/sentry before race modifiers, which gives the elf 135mil spy while the Undead gets 135mil sentry.

The Elf would most likely have his sentry whiped out before the Undead, effectively ubergolding the account. With 100/135mil stats you don't really see much difference, but at even higher numbers the difference is there to a bigger extent. The higher you go, the Elf can sab higher and higher Sentries, while the Undead will last longer and longer compared to the Elf, which could mean more damage done to the enemy in total. Neither of them are very prone to massing.. As for keeping the account up during wars, the Undead would be better off, with needing to hold a lesser amount of BPM's to get the SA required to farm the right people.

TL;DR - In a war the Elf would have the advantage if you're looking at it short term, for long term the advantage would shift towards Undead.
is this in relation to your theory or the current bonuses? cos if its not relating to ur theory then exactly, what was the point of this post? i thought it was saying undead have unfair advantage lol

xAre
17th July 2008, 04:39 PM
is this in relation to your theory or the current bonuses? cos if its not relating to ur theory then exactly, what was the point of this post? i thought it was saying undead have unfair advantage lol

They have 3 bonuses :p Instead of giving an extra bonus wouldn't it be better to increase the sentry bonus for instance?

HoMiCiD3
17th July 2008, 04:47 PM
no
since they are undead and their bonus is sentry, they wudnt be undead without having less casualties so how does that work? and each race has a bonus of anothers race so undead must have 3. unless u change the race to something else lol

Crim
22nd July 2008, 08:30 PM
Here's an idea. Get rid of undead. Problem solved. KoC goes back to 4 races and the bonuses get reduced to 1 bonus of 100%

rawr

Note: the 100% thing, obviously sarcasm.

ThirtySeven
26th July 2008, 04:49 PM
If there would be an obvious imbalance in bonuses, people would not choose the weaker race if they had the choice. Seems to me that people chose all 5 more or less equally.

So the imbalance would be less obvious already. But don't these non-obvious imbalances cancel each other out as most accounts are not balanced? If you plan on getting a huge account, less casualties are very interesting. If you plan on DA whoring, a defense bonus would be nice. So, there is no way you can determine any imbalance, really.

Not sure about the sentry bonus, are there sentry whores too?