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LoseR
23rd August 2007, 12:47 PM
This topic came up in the "SPY ACCOUNTS" thread. But, since this isn't about spy accounts, I thought that I would make a new thread here.

Note: The finer details of this idea are explained in terms of age 7 attack turns, so you can do whatever conversion you want into age 8 beta turns.

--

Here's what I had in mind: Have two types of attacks. One is the normal hit for gold, which would still require 15 attack turns. Another would be a different type of attack, aimed at destroying people's spy and sentry arsenal. here is how I envision this 2nd type of attack (I'll call it a "siege" attack):

Success Rate
Instead of having a "successful" siege attack like there are successful sabotage missions, make it so that the greater the difference between the attacker's SA and the defender's DA determines how many tools the defender loses. If the SA is much larger then the defender's DA, then a fair amount of damage should be done to the defender.

Limitations
I think that this new attack should be able to damage someone, even though their defense is higher than the attacker's strike action. In such a case, the amount of tools destroyed by this attack would be smaller then if the defender had very little defense.

Naturally, there should be some limit as to when an attacker can no longer harm the defender. Since sabbers can sabotage people with up to 4 times their spy in sentry rating, I think that this ratio should be preserved with the siege attack. (i.e when the defender has 4 times the DA of the attacker's SA, then he cannot be hurt by the attacker's sieges.)

Frequency of Use
You should be able to siege attack someone a max of 5 times in a day. But if you already attacked this person for gold once today, then you can only siege them 4 times. attacked them twice? then you can siege them 3 times, and so on.

Cost
Siege attacks will cost one attack turn, much as a probe attack does now.

Damages
As stated earlier, the ratio between the attacker's SA and the defender's DA will determine how many spy and sentry weapons are destroyed. And, obviously, the amount of spy and sentry weapons that the defender has will play a large role in how much damage he takes. Also, instead of being broken upon use (like sabotage is now), the spy and sentry weapons should be destroyed immediately by the siege attack.

Repairs
Since it is likely that the attacker will siege attack the defender 5 times per day, then the repairs on the siege attack should be 1/5th of what the current repairs are for a normal attack. The defender also has to repair his weapons at a similar, discounted, price.

--

I think that covered just about everything. thoughts? questions? ask away.

kurogina
23rd August 2007, 01:28 PM
I think it should be the same ratio as the sab to sentry one, but i also think that the sab to sentry one should be greatly decreased, like a maximum of
1:1, but yeah i was in huge favor of this in the SPY ACCOUNTS thread, glad you made this one

beebob2uk
23rd August 2007, 04:03 PM
its a nice idea, i agree that if your SA absolutely trounces their DA you should be doing them more damage, just as long as it doesnt go endlessly, im all in favour of making sab accounts more vunerable (like normal players are), but dont take the piss, if ive got 1bil SA and hes got 1mil DA doesnt mean he should lose something silly like 50% of his spy weapons :p

Savage_NPK
23rd August 2007, 05:34 PM
wow why dont you just burn the elves at the stake.

beebob2uk
23rd August 2007, 06:27 PM
because they havent implemented that feature yet either >_>

LoseR
23rd August 2007, 06:32 PM
wow why dont you just burn the elves at the stake.

Elves spy bonus can't be hurt, with the current formulas. This is unfair, because Orcs and Dwarves' bonus can be destroyed.

but you have to admit that there needs to be another way to hurt sab accounts. our current attack system that kills spy and sentries barely leaves a mark against ANY sab account (no matter how strong). Sabbing elven cloaks isn't much fun, either.

MFnBonsai
23rd August 2007, 06:57 PM
Elves spy bonus can't be hurt, with the current formulas. This is unfair, because Orcs and Dwarves' bonus can be destroyed.

but you have to admit that there needs to be another way to hurt sab accounts. our current attack system that kills spy and sentries barely leaves a mark against ANY sab account (no matter how strong). Sabbing elven cloaks isn't much fun, either.

Orcs bonus cannot be destroyed....

all you slayers bitch and moan about how bad you have it and how much you lose to sabbin.... when in reality you lose fukk all....

as a slayer you should be smart enough to know how much you can lose per successful sabb mission on you.... which in turn enables you to sell and rebuy....

if you are losing your SA as a slayer then j00 just aint smart enough....

PS. and dont say that i dont know what im talking about cause im a sabber.... im actually a ranker....

i got all these nub TCL wanna be sabbers that sabb me daily.... but damage is minimal to non existant and i just yawn when i see them in my logs....

chaoticlife
23rd August 2007, 07:08 PM
my god I bet all you idiots saying you want to damage elves even more then they already have , have never played an elve account ever and are either pure slayer accounts or rankers .

this beta has destroyed elves as we have known them to be and made a new race that is even more powerful in its own ways then elves yet not touched any other race in any way .

and now for you to ask for even more ways to destroy the elve accounts is just idiotic and obserd so get off your high horses and leave the damn elve accounts alone its bad enough we lose 5 nuns out of 11 tries wether we succeed or not in those tries and when attacked spies and sens are lost along with the gold they are being hit for plus to top it off it takes twice as much gold to build a good spy stat compared to SA or DA .

so if you want more changes to elves lets try giving something back to them and stop trying to eliminate them from the game all together.

LoseR
23rd August 2007, 08:20 PM
I played as elves in age 5. so do your research before you make an ignorant statement like that


Orcs bonus cannot be destroyed....

all you slayers bitch and moan about how bad you have it and how much you lose to sabbin.... when in reality you lose fukk all....

as a slayer you should be smart enough to know how much you can lose per successful sabb mission on you.... which in turn enables you to sell and rebuy....

if you are losing your SA as a slayer then j00 just aint smart enough....

PS. and dont say that i dont know what im talking about cause im a sabber.... im actually a ranker....

i got all these nub TCL wanna be sabbers that sabb me daily.... but damage is minimal to non existant and i just yawn when i see them in my logs....

Did I complain about losing weapons? no I haven't. I know how to sell my weapons :).And no, you are not a ranker, you have elven cloaks.

At least slayers can actually lose weapons, as opposed to sabbers, who lose a nunchaku here and there when they sab. Not to mention the ridiculous repairs on BPM. 20 mil repairs on a 60 mil hit really sucks.

Savage_NPK
23rd August 2007, 08:48 PM
Elves spy bonus can't be hurt, with the current formulas. This is unfair, because Orcs and Dwarves' bonus can be destroyed.

but you have to admit that there needs to be another way to hurt sab accounts. our current attack system that kills spy and sentries barely leaves a mark against ANY sab account (no matter how strong). Sabbing elven cloaks isn't much fun, either.

Since they can get destroyed Isn't that why they have the biggest bonuses?

LoseR
23rd August 2007, 08:56 PM
Active Players
Orcs 7,710 24%
Elves 7,316 23%
Humans 10,744 34%
Dwarves 6,262 20%
Total 32,032 100%

dwarves have the least, even though they have the greatest bonus. that speaks for itself.

Savage_NPK
23rd August 2007, 09:17 PM
Well I wasn't talking about how many people play the race, but the reason for the bonus.

LeonFellpool
23rd August 2007, 09:22 PM
mm I believe bon has ranked in ages past mate.

And honestly any sabber who do not use the 640 limit, while it sucks for the ones that want to take them down, if your in war all the time --and I am sure Bon is-- if you don't use 640 your a fool.

Same in ages past. Like sabbers in age 5 if they didn't use the 10 weapons rule and have at least that DA and huge SA/Spy they generally were weaker at fighting wars.

as for the idea... mmm not sure yet :P

kurogina
23rd August 2007, 09:41 PM
we already agreed in the other thread that what massing and 5x1 does to a sabber is nothing compared to what they do to you, and if you want infinite number of sabs back in exchange for the ability to directly attack your spy rating im sure most ppl would be more than happy to make that deal, as i've said before and no one seems to listen, WE DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE LIMITS, WE WANT A DIRECT WAY TO HIT YOUR SPY RATING IF YOU SAB US, THAT IS ALL!! and not farming b/c that's such a big hassle and barely worth it if it is EVEN worth it compared to you spying and sabbing someone which is damn near impossible to protect against. If you want to respond to this for the sabbers point of view and shoot this argument down, analyze every point of it and say why it fails, i have yet to see a sabber ever do that, they almost always bring up massing or farming them or how they're already limited

LoseR
23rd August 2007, 10:04 PM
exactly. The sab formulas are OK as they are, but I think that the rankers should finally be able to hit back at the sabbers, for once. You sabbers can still have your fun doing whatever you do (and maybe even more fun, because you can do even more stuff with that strike action you use to get gold hits ^^).

A high spy can destroy a small SA and DA, so why can't a high SA destroy a small spy and sentry? it makes sense.

kurogina
23rd August 2007, 10:36 PM
idk about the sab formulas, i mean you need 20 mill sentry to not be sabbed by someone with 5 mill spy, and that's low for a sabber, idk maybe if someones sentry is 2X their spy they cant be sabbed, but something should def. be done about recon b/c that's really freaking hard to block, but im not going to go into that b/c that's not what this thread is for. To be honest i haven't been randomly sabbed yet, either it was b/c i went against their AA (and i realize i could have been getting more than 2 mill gold, i was just on the wrong page) or b/c of the war, but that's when getting back at sabbers matters i guess. Is random sabbing going on? or better yet what's all the sabbing that's going on right now? like would you say a lot or a little or things b/c of AA??? and be honest.

MFnBonsai
24th August 2007, 01:49 AM
I played as elves in age 5. so do your research before you make an ignorant statement like that



Did I complain about losing weapons? no I haven't. I know how to sell my weapons :).And no, you are not a ranker, you have elven cloaks.

At least slayers can actually lose weapons, as opposed to sabbers, who lose a nunchaku here and there when they sab. Not to mention the ridiculous repairs on BPM. 20 mil repairs on a 60 mil hit really sucks.

i do not have elven cloaks so do some research before you talk crap about something you know nothing about....

Soldier_Worst
24th August 2007, 02:21 AM
Just wanna make sure what this is about. It's indeed NOT about weakening sabotage, if it depends on me elves can have bonusses of other ages, I don't care. I don't care if the cap on spy and attack turns is gone, it won't make the difference to most people.
The main problem is (like repeated alot in the thread on SPY ACCOUNTS) you can't hurt the "all on spyrating" kind of sabbers now. 5x1's are not effective in most cases, if I have 10k of spies and 8k nuns, try hurting me while I have 640 UP.
People who say 5x1's like they are in age 7 are effective are OR unexperienced and don't know what they are saying OR biased.

Something has to be thought out to bring some more fun back to the game. With some sort of attack on spies/sentries and tools, it can be done. This gives everyone the option to do MORE DAMAGE then there can be done now, not the quantity of action increases but the quality. Real fighters would welcome this change as it makes war do real damage, while now it only turns people into sabaccounts, drag on and get überboring.

It's not logical all the players have to adapt to sabbers, no account should be invulnerable. I don't want elves to have disadvantages, I don't want to get rid of sabotage, I want a balance in the game, right now the game is unbalanced.

The loss of nuns when you try to sab isn't a good feat.. To some accounts it matters, to others it doesn't. It depends on the TBG and goldhits you can make. Even then, for each nun you lose, your targets loses 10x that, while they're still not able to retaliate on you if you are one of those invulnerable sabaccount types.
It seems to me it's better to get rid of this feat.

Most of those sabaccounts are cowards anyway, having a big mouth and acting though, while they can't be hurt themselves. Now when it comes down they may face a real fight, they turn into chickens and bring up bullshit to prevent this from happening. The normal way of a fight is, you give some and you get some. Right now sabbers only give, they don't get hurt.

Since I'm not playing, and I'm not directly planning to AND because I've always been a fighter, you can be sure I'm not biased. I'm no ranker, but I'm smart enough to notice there is a problem screwing the fun of many players in this game. If you're not huge, if you are a ranker or slayer you have a big disadvantage compared to sabbers. People should have the choice again.

Having a new way to get rid of invulnerable sabaccounts is the most important thing. How exactly this will be done is less important to me, for aslong as it brings back balance, it is fair and doesn't destroy the option of being a sabber (probably with DA) either.
The fact I don't like to call it "siege attack" (no attack on your plan Fit_Loser) doesn't matter either :p
I just would like an original name applying to it's function. I don't see how a siege would destroy nuns or skeleton keys. But again, the name isn't important.

Deth
24th August 2007, 02:23 AM
Orcs bonus cannot be destroyed....

all you slayers bitch and moan about how bad you have it and how much you lose to sabbin.... when in reality you lose fukk all....

as a slayer you should be smart enough to know how much you can lose per successful sabb mission on you.... which in turn enables you to sell and rebuy....

if you are losing your SA as a slayer then j00 just aint smart enough....

PS. and dont say that i dont know what im talking about cause im a sabber.... im actually a ranker....

i got all these nub TCL wanna be sabbers that sabb me daily.... but damage is minimal to non existant and i just yawn when i see them in my logs....

25% of a lot is still more then what spy accounts lose :)

Soldier_Worst
24th August 2007, 02:30 AM
And I worked out a small example some days ago. It's not exactly the same as what FiT_Loser has in mind, but it's comparable. I'll just put it up on here to have a better view on the possibilties of this new attack (I have called it CEA = Counter Espionage Attack, but I welcome all original names!)


a ranker retaliates on a sabber by a CEA.
The SA of the ranker = 100M
The DA of the sabber = 100M
coëfficient = 1
The ranker is lucky enough to be victorious (lets say you still have to be victorious to do damage with a CEA)
=>
- tooldamage done = 0,01%
- spy/sentrycasualties = 0,005%
-> This hardly hurts the sabber.

Change the sabber by a "noobsabber" who only has 2M DA:
coëfficient = 50 (there should be a limit though)
=>
- tooldamage done = 0,5%
- casualties = 0,25%
-> If you 5x1 this sabber, together with 19 other players, you have 100 attacks of this kind. Result => tooldamage = 50% / casualties = 25%

atti
24th August 2007, 02:39 AM
This topic came up in the "SPY ACCOUNTS" thread. But, since this isn't about spy accounts, I thought that I would make a new thread here.

Note: The finer details of this idea are explained in terms of age 7 attack turns, so you can do whatever conversion you want into age 8 beta turns.

--

Here's what I had in mind: Have two types of attacks. One is the normal hit for gold, which would still require 15 attack turns. Another would be a different type of attack, aimed at destroying people's spy and sentry arsenal. here is how I envision this 2nd type of attack (I'll call it a "siege" attack):

Success Rate
Instead of having a "successful" siege attack like there are successful sabotage missions, make it so that the greater the difference between the attacker's SA and the defender's DA determines how many tools the defender loses. If the SA is much larger then the defender's DA, then a fair amount of damage should be done to the defender.

Limitations
I think that this new attack should be able to damage someone, even though their defense is higher than the attacker's strike action. In such a case, the amount of tools destroyed by this attack would be smaller then if the defender had very little defense.

Naturally, there should be some limit as to when an attacker can no longer harm the defender. Since sabbers can sabotage people with up to 4 times their spy in sentry rating, I think that this ratio should be preserved with the siege attack. (i.e when the defender has 4 times the DA of the attacker's SA, then he cannot be hurt by the attacker's sieges.)

Frequency of Use
You should be able to siege attack someone a max of 5 times in a day. But if you already attacked this person for gold once today, then you can only siege them 4 times. attacked them twice? then you can siege them 3 times, and so on.

Cost
Siege attacks will cost one attack turn, much as a probe attack does now.

Damages
As stated earlier, the ratio between the attacker's SA and the defender's DA will determine how many spy and sentry weapons are destroyed. And, obviously, the amount of spy and sentry weapons that the defender has will play a large role in how much damage he takes. Also, instead of being broken upon use (like sabotage is now), the spy and sentry weapons should be destroyed immediately by the siege attack.

Repairs
Since it is likely that the attacker will siege attack the defender 5 times per day, then the repairs on the siege attack should be 1/5th of what the current repairs are for a normal attack. The defender also has to repair his weapons at a similar, discounted, price.

--

I think that covered just about everything. thoughts? questions? ask away.

It's a good idea as long the defender sentries or spies are able to defend theirselves by breaking a few of the BPMS (attack weapons) of the attacker.

Soldier_Worst
24th August 2007, 02:40 AM
Why break BPM's after the attack, just keep the weapondamage like you have it when you attack for gold. It's the same result -> it costs gold.
The more BPM's you have the higher the cost. Sadly enough the admins didn't use the same system for sabs -> Tooldamage. They choose for an unfair "loss of tools" after a sabotage. All these kind of systems are unfair cause it's harder to bear for a little player and it isn't even noticed by a bigger player.

kurogina
24th August 2007, 10:47 AM
i disagree with that idea, id rather have tool loss gone for sabbing and not have bpm's destroyed than have both

Savage_NPK
24th August 2007, 04:14 PM
If your saying that the tool will only have to be repaired then I misunderstood and agree with the idea. If your talking about breaking tools by attacks then fuck that!

atti
24th August 2007, 04:37 PM
If one is added then balance must come up.

LoseR
24th August 2007, 07:43 PM
If your saying that the tool will only have to be repaired then I misunderstood and agree with the idea. If your talking about breaking tools by attacks then fuck that!

Yes. I think that we should be able to break tools.

Do sabbers only damage blackpowder missiles/ invisibility shields? No. They break them. Spy and Sentry tools should be broken as well.

--

And to the person that De-repped me for trying to "weaken" elves: Elves can destroy spy and sentry weapons, too ;)

Savage_NPK
24th August 2007, 08:51 PM
Your talking about just having to attack to break them? talk about unfair. If you want to sabb tools then bring back the age 6 formulas.

LoseR
24th August 2007, 09:33 PM
I don't suppose it really matters if they are broken or sabbed like weapons. I just want a way to hurt the sabbers :)

Deth
25th August 2007, 02:24 AM
this idea makes things too complicated...the solution is actually quite simple...allow us to sab spy tools.
No need to make things more complicated...its a simple game...they can sab our weapons, so we sab their tools...simple :)

kurogina
25th August 2007, 07:17 AM
well that would seem like a good idea the only problem with it is now sabbers can also sab our spy tools too, it would just make war chaining even worse b/c whoevers at the top can destroy any sabbing opposition, that's why i want a way to use SA and DA instead, idk if that's why other ppl do but i cant see why else. if you could sab spy rating, the first thing a sabber would go for would be that, and then they'd go into your armory.

Savage_NPK
25th August 2007, 09:03 AM
I bet that gives you nightmares.

kurogina
25th August 2007, 09:14 AM
hahaha, you know that when we say an attack to break them we're talking about a different kind of attack and not just a normal attack like the ones we use now right?

Savage_NPK
25th August 2007, 10:45 AM
But you want it to use the same turns and cause you the same damage, and you want it to somehow destroy tools without them being sabbed.

beebob2uk
25th August 2007, 10:53 AM
we want to make different stats useful for damaging accounts, not just one stat, therefore people cant just hoard one stat and go about destroying accounts, in order to do it effectively they need tactics rather than just pure spy

Carlos
25th August 2007, 11:52 AM
this idea is silly, sotty but its stupid. ive got a better one, when u hit an elf, u take 2% of his bonus and so on. if he goes down to 0% bonus, he just loses bonus, that way we shouldeliminate them

how about, when you attack someone u actually break the BPM... that way u can HURT slayers with no sentry spy or da..
or when u attack a dwarve, if his damage in IS is over 1% he losses a fort

lets just fuck all the races.

this is kings of Chaos, chaos? yes chaos. not kings of mills or kings of the beach, sabbersshould create CHAOS. if creating chaos means fucking others, thn be it, rankers should try to rank in a CHAOS atmosphere


And I worked out a small example some days ago. It's not exactly the same as what FiT_Loser has in mind, but it's comparable. I'll just put it up on here to have a better view on the possibilties of this new attack (I have called it CEA = Counter Espionage Attack, but I welcome all original names!)
stupid idea sorry, that just helps slayers, who with their high sa can amke a lot of damage, can lose a max of 50 bpm (bs within 2 months, a slayer has 10k bpm or so) + h doesnt lose turns

we want to make different stats useful for damaging accounts, not just one stat, therefore people cant just hoard one stat and go about destroying accounts, in order to do it effectively they need tactics rather than just pure spy
how about u help ur alliance by sabbing us instead of talking to fury so he eliminates sabotage? none in JD has sabbed me and doubt anyone in bss gets sabbed. so win the wars in the bf instead than chatting with fury ;)

LoseR
25th August 2007, 11:55 AM
this idea makes things too complicated...the solution is actually quite simple...allow us to sab spy tools.
No need to make things more complicated...its a simple game...they can sab our weapons, so we sab their tools...simple :)

then spy does EVERYTHING. it is already a very powerful stat, no need to make it do more.

Tidus-
25th August 2007, 01:18 PM
They should make a system so we can break BPM tht be great.

I voted no btw.

Soldier_Worst
25th August 2007, 01:34 PM
Carlos_LaCN, your aguments about "this is kings of chaos" is pure bullshit.
With this feat implemented there will be alot more chaos then there is now. Right now sabbing is completly worthless, it only creates more sabaccounts. Or must I conclude everyone who is turned into sabaccount is a loser?

mass attacks are worthless, sabbing is worthless, wars in general are worthless. There is no challenge at all unless you are a huge account in running for a top rank. If I play a game, I like it to be fun, not an unproductive way of wasting my time.

Do you worry to be screwed over Carlos, just because you tend to create many enemies during an age? Btw, I don't mean this offensive, but it is the truth, right? I hope you don't see me as an enemy for giving my opinion on your reaction. I just don't feel like being subtile. I admit, with this feat players can be really screwed over. It will be more important to be in a strong tight alliance.
At least you say why you don't like it, more that most "no" voters do.
Many people where against importing sabotage in the game in one of the early ages, now it's unthinkable to be without it. The game didn't have a big change for years, it's time to see a fresh new change in this game to make it interesting again.

I don't care if sabotage is made more effective btw. The "new attack" must be as strong against spy or sentry, as sabotage against DA or SA. It's all about balance. And like I said before, if you can't see this game is unbalanced, you're or blind or biased.

And I'd like to see fury's reaction, mainly cause he has made a list of "wanted changes", so he'll have something useful to say about it. For as far as I know, fury will not "eliminate sabotage" cause that would be useful to him. Now I hope even some sabbers will start to realise this isn't an attack on their position, but this might be used well by them. Everyone has to adapt of course, but thats where skills and insight come in.

I'm still more in favour of damaging tools, not destroying. Btw, if the strenght of a weapon or tool is brought down to 0, isn't repairing it exactly as expensive than buying new ones?

And I'm still the most unbiased player in this discussion :) Not really playing, a fighter myself (no ranker or slayer), my only interest is improving the game.

Savage_NPK
25th August 2007, 02:05 PM
If a weapon is brought down to 0 then it is destroyed.

Soldier_Worst
25th August 2007, 02:51 PM
Yea, but I mean, if you have 10 BPM's and they're damaged to 50% of their strenght. Is the repaircost not the same as buying 5 BPM's?

And I had one more.. doubt about the idea. I don't know if the "new attack" should be succesful all the time. Maybe it's more interesting to make it similar to sabbing. In that case: More attempts (still attack turns? it's possible if the old system is brought back with 15 turns for an attack, 1 for a "new attack") + a bit more powerful BUT with successes and failures, like a sabattempt can be succesful or failed.

That way you can try to find ways to be:
- more succesful (like rumours of ratio's and stuff)
- better protected (like a "sentry ratio" if it exists, to make it harder for your attacker to be succesful)

Might be more challenging and again adds to the importance of skill :)

Any thoughts on that?

LoseR
25th August 2007, 02:55 PM
actually, it isn't. its much cheaper to repair weapons than it is to buy new ones.

kurogina
25th August 2007, 09:49 PM
well i figured we'd be using DA for the attack so i dont think we really need a new stat to block against the tool destroying one, which i think should be a different kind of attack turn completely. I deleted my account b/c i pissed off some sabber who basically had dont do anything to me or ill sab you and then im guessing his chain sabbed me or something and another person i pissed off when i attacked them started sabbing me too and i said do it again and she responded "i have nothing to sab" so she was invulnerable and that message right there is proof, not that we need it b/c everybody knows but still that should be the hardcore basis that something needs to be done.

my proposition as well as various forms of others:
a new attack turn that comes once an hour? that lets you attack someone without stealing gold that destroys spy tools based on your SA compared to their DA
success%: 50% of the time it will work with 1:1 of SA to DA, 10% with
1:1.2, any higher than 1.2 DA of the SA and it wont work, any lower than
1:.8 and it will always work.
Damage: More damage done with 2:1, 5:1, 10:1, and 50:1 of SA to DA.
*No weapons lost in failed attempt and remove the tool loss in failed sab attempt
If brought into effect im sure most ppl wont mind giving up the 500 sab turn cap in return for this.
The reason we want it is b/c getting back at them is at last in our control and not in some random factor.

Tell me what you like and dont like about this by analyzing every point of it, and SABBERS, i DARE you to analyze every point of this, shooting every part of it down, without mentioning massing, 5x1, or farming, b/c everyone besides sabbers think those are completely ineffective methods and they pretty much are in comparison to the damage that you do back. and as far as 640 weps go, i changed my SA to 640 weps and for some reason it went from 9 mill to 800K, so i deleted my account when i got sabbed by 4 more ppl and said eff this. You need to start bringing up better arguments b/c from where im standing you keep repeating the same ones and they've been shot down numerous times. And as far as adding chaos to the game, they're just creating more sabbers. Those are all the arguments i've seen in their support, and they've been shot down b/c they all suck.

Savage_NPK
26th August 2007, 01:59 PM
If you are going to switch your weapons to 640 ones you will need to have more to keep the same SA/DA. Thats why its hard to bring down people who use that method because sabbers can only sabb 50 of the weapons AAT. It works.

kurogina
26th August 2007, 02:27 PM
that is true but at the same time you'll NEED to have a higher TFF to use the weapons, which i didn't have and that is why they were so weak, and also for ppl with low defences while you have a ton of gold on you calculating how many wargs to buy would be a much bigger hassle, not a big argument i know but it's still true. It would also mean that sabbing would have to be based on amt. and not value (which was in a thread a week or 2 ago).

That is the biggest defence against sabbing but at the same time we shouldn't be forced to change how we play b/c another playing style is invulnerable, at this rate any noobs who join an alliance will be told "dont buy anything over 50K" and it will be second nature, kinda ruins some of the fun in the game. and then if everyone does that then the sabbers have nothing to sab. Unless something is done i think it will kill KoC, you actually put up a good argument for the sabbers, but you wouldn't like it if something happened and it was now in your best interest to only buy ropes, so look at it from our point of view too.

Savage_NPK
26th August 2007, 04:04 PM
we shouldn't be forced to change how we play

Yet sabbers have to do that every age.

beebob2uk
26th August 2007, 04:08 PM
sabbers dont have to change the way they play at all, they do exactly the same thing every time, the only thing that varies is the amount of damage they can cause per attempt

Carlos
26th August 2007, 05:11 PM
sabbers dont have to change the way they play at all, they do exactly the same thing every time, the only thing that varies is the amount of damage they can cause per attempt

true, just ahve to change how much sentry da we need, live without a sentry bonus, figure the formulae, yeah, no major changes

kurogina
26th August 2007, 05:56 PM
wait, what!? i dont get it, what all do you mean besides raising your sentry?

Bozza
29th August 2007, 04:04 AM
I think that the attack should be ACA Anti-Covert-Attack and it's like sabbing you select the weapon that you want to destroy and the number of weapons that you want to destroy and you attack. Now the attackes SA has to be bigger than the oponants DA or you will lose. This doesn't have to succed every time so it will be like sabbing this will make Sab accounts defeatable, YAY. It will also make people build there DA as they dont want to be ACA'd.

So Slayer can be sabbed by sabers and rankers but can ACA back.
A ranker can be sabbed by a saber and ACA by a Slayer but can do the same back.
And a sabber can sabb the slayer and the ranker but will be ACA.

This is fair to me and it would bring back balance. I dont want to think of %'s it's up to the admins. Just my opinion