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Kuckzul
23rd January 2007, 09:49 AM
Hello!

Does it matter how many of my soldiers are unarmed or have weapons? Or is the SA/DA all that matters?

So if I would have only few of my soldiers armed, but with very powerfull weapons, would that be just as good as if all of my soldiers had weaker weapons?

mcm-never-dies
23rd January 2007, 11:09 AM
a = the total strength of all weapons held by trained soldiers / mercenaries + the total number of unarmed trained soldiers / mercenaries .b = the total strength of all weapons held by untrained soldiers / mercenaries + the total number of unarmed untrained soldiers / mercenaries .
c = the fortification or siege multiplier (see below ;))

Now you can calculate your SA and DA with the following formula:
((5*a)+(4*b))*c

Keep in mind that defence weapons only count for defence, and attack weapons only count for attack. The same applies to trained soldiers ;)

So in general, it doesn´t matter if you have many soldiers with weak weapons or few soldiers with big weapons. But remember that with the stronger weapons you get more strength for the same gold ;)


Fortifications
Level - name - Cost - Multiplier - Upgrade at
2 - Stockade - 40,000 Gold (1 Invisibility Shield(s) or 1 Dragonskin(s)) - Multiplier: 1.25 - 17,778 DA
3 - Rabid Pitbulls - 80,000 Gold (1 Invisibility Shield(s) or 1 Dragonskin(s)) - 1.5 - 53,333 DA
4 - Walled Town - 160,000 Gold (1 Invisibility Shield(s) or 1 Dragonskin(s)) - 1.75 - 149,333 DA
5 - Towers - 320,000 Gold (1 Invisibility Shield(s) or 2 Dragonskin(s)) - 2.0 - 398,222 DA
6 - Battlements - 640,000 Gold (1 Invisibility Shield(s) or 4 Dragonskin(s)) - 2.25 - 1,024,000 DA
7 - Portcullis - 1,280,000 Gold (2 Invisibility Shield(s) or 9 Dragonskin(s)) - 2.5 - 2,560,000 DA
8 - Boiling Oil - 2,560,000 Gold (5 Invisibility Shield(s) or 17 Dragonskin(s)) - 2.75 - 6,257,778 DA
9 - Trenches - 5,120,000 Gold (9 Invisibility Shield(s) or 34 Dragonskin(s)) - 3.0 - 15,018,667 DA
10 - Moat - 10,240,000 Gold (18 Invisibility Shield(s) or 68 Dragonskin(s)) - 3.25 - 35,498,667 DA
11 - Drawbridge - 20,480,000 Gold (36 Invisibility Shield(s) or 137 Dragonskin(s)) - 3.5 - 82,830,222 DA
12 - Fortress - 40,960,000 Gold (73 Invisibility Shield(s) or 273 Dragonskin(s)) - 3.75 - 191,146,667 DA
13 - Stronghold - 81,920,000 Gold (146 Invisibility Shield(s) or 546 Dragonskin(s)) - 4.0 - 436,906,667 DA
14 - Palace - 163,840,000 Gold (291 Invisibility Shield(s) or 1092 Dragonskin(s)) - 4.25 - 990,321,778 DA
15 - Keep - 327,680,000 Gold (583 Invisibility Shield(s) or 2185 Dragonskin(s)) - 4.5 - 2,228,224,000 DA
16 - Citadel - 655,360,000 Gold (1165 Invisibility Shield(s) or 4369 Dragonskin(s)) - 4.75 - 4,980,736,000 DA
17 - Hand of God - 1,310,720,000 Gold (2330 Invisibility Shield(s) or 8738 Dragonskin(s)) - 5.0 - 11,068,302,222 DA


Siege Technologies
Level - name - Cost - Multiplier - Upgrade at
2 - Flaming Arrows - 40,000 Gold (1 Black Powder Missile(s) or 1 Excallibur(s)) - 1.33 - 14,222 SA
3 - Ballistas - 80,000 Gold (1 Black Powder Missile(s) or 1 Excallibur(s)) - 1.66 - 47,407 SA
4 - Battering Ram - 160,000 Gold (1 Black Powder Missile(s) or 1 Excallibur(s)) - 2.0 - 142,222 SA
5 - Ladders - 320,000 Gold (1 Black Powder Missile(s) or 2 Excallibur(s)) - 2.33 - 398,222 SA
6 - Trojan Horse - 640,000 Gold (1 Black Powder Missile(s) or 4 Excallibur(s)) - 2.66 - 1,061,926 SA
7 - Catapults - 1,280,000 Gold (2 Black Powder Missile(s) or 9 Excallibur(s)) - 3.0 - 2,730,667 SA
8 - War Elephants - 2,560,000 Gold (5 Black Powder Missile(s) or 17 Excallibur(s)) - 3.33 - 6,826,667 SA
9 - Siege Towers - 5,120,000 Gold (9 Black Powder Missile(s) or 34 Excallibur(s)) - 3.66 - 16,687,407 SA
10 - Trebuchets - 10,240,000 Gold (18 Black Powder Missile(s) or 68 Excallibur(s)) - 4.0 - 40,049,778 SA
11 - Black Powder - 20.480.000 - 4,333
12 - Sappers - 40.960.000 - 4,667
13 - Dynamite - 81.920.000 - 5,000
14 - Greek Fire - 163.840.000 - 5,333
15 - Cannons - 327.680.000 - 5,667

A note for the people who are going to say a few values are missing: I know :p I made this list a few ages ago, and some STs have been added since then ;) I haven´t calculated the upgrade at values for the new STs yet :p

Zeta-kun
23rd January 2007, 11:17 AM
in simple words... yes, aslong as you have anough soldiers to hold all your weaons, all that matter is the SA.
and the more powerfull the weapon the best relation SA/GOLD it has so its more profitable to buy BPM insted of lower weapons.

Kuckzul
23rd January 2007, 05:18 PM
Ok, thanks!

The reason I started wondering about this is that in the attack logs they always say how many of my soldiers are armed and with what, and I had already noticed that it was cheaper to buy few strong weapons, so I just wanted to make sure.

And thanks for that formula!

Kuckzul
23rd January 2007, 06:07 PM
a = the total strength of all weapons held by trained soldiers / mercenaries + the total number of unarmed trained soldiers / mercenaries .b = the total strength of all weapons held by untrained soldiers / mercenaries + the total number of unarmed untrained soldiers / mercenaries [SIZE=3][SIZE=2].
c = the fortification or siege multiplier (see below ;))

Now you can calculate your SA and DA with the following formula:
((5*a)+(4*b))*c

Keep in mind that defence weapons only count for defence, and attack weapons only count for attack. The same applies to trained soldiers ;)

So in general, it doesn´t matter if you have many soldiers with weak weapons or few soldiers with big weapons. But remember that with the stronger weapons you get more strength for the same gold ;)After reading this again, I've got a new question: Is it pointless to train your soldiers? An untrained soldier gives 4 both in SA and DA, but a trained soldier gives 5 in only one. It looks like its both cheaper and better to keep them untrained, even if they die faster. (You would still need to buy spies and sentries though)

mcm-never-dies
24th January 2007, 08:10 AM
nope, imagine you have 1000 bmp and 1000 IS, and 1000 trained soldiers for both defence and attack, and fortification/ siege multiplier 3:
(5*(1,000*10,000))*3=150,000,000
so SA and DA would be 150,000,000

with untrained soldiers you would save 2000/ soldier.
Defence: 1000*2000=2,000,000 gold
for 2,000,000 gold you can buy 2.6667 IS, so:
(4*(1,002.6667*10,000))*3= 120,320,000
for the same gold ;)

so training soldiers definitely saves very much money ;)
You could apply the same calculating to SA, and find that the SA would be around the same value.

I hope that answered your question ;)

Kuckzul
24th January 2007, 11:47 AM
nope, imagine you have 1000 bmp and 1000 IS, and 1000 trained soldiers for both defence and attack, and fortification/ siege multiplier 3:
(5*(1,000*10,000))*3=150,000,000
so SA and DA would be 150,000,000

with untrained soldiers you would save 2000/ soldier.
Defence: 1000*2000=2,000,000 gold
for 2,000,000 gold you can buy 2.6667 IS, so:
(4*(1,002.6667*10,000))*3= 120,320,000
for the same gold ;)Ok, it took me a long time to accept this to be true. First I thought you where wrong because of these things:

I would have had 2000 untrained soldiers instead of 1000 Defence Soldiers

Since I have double amount, that would be 2000*2000 = 4,000,000 gold. ~5,2 extra IS instead of ~2.6.

An untrained soldier is 4/5 the strength of a trained one, so I thougth they would pay up the 1/5 weaker with the double amount of troops.

But what I didn't think of was that there would be 994,8888 weaponless untrained soldiers, they don't pay up the 1/5 difference =P:
(4*(1,005.2222*10,000)+0.994888*4*10,000)*3=~120,7 46,050.56

So until a good % of your untrained soldiers are armed with weapons, it is better to have them untrained. Right? =P

mcm-never-dies
24th January 2007, 03:15 PM
no, remember this is a calculation only for DA, for SA it will be the same win. ALLWAYS train them, it you´ll get much more DA/ SA for less money ;)
And no, you´d only need 1000 untrained soldiers, since untrained work for both SA and DA, if you train them you´ll need 2000: 1000 for DA and 1000 for SA

simply do a few calculations yourself and you´ll see it´s allways better to train ;)

EDIT:

Maybe an example with 1 soldier would be better :p

1 untrained soldier + 1 Invisibility Shield, no fortification:
DA: 4*10,000*1=40,000
Total cost: 750,000

1 trained soldier + 1 Invisibility Shield, no fortification:
DA: 5*10,000*1=50,000
Total cost: 750,000 + 2,000 = 752,000

So even with small amounts training is better, exception: if you have sticks/ knives, or very weak weapons ;)

LoseR
24th January 2007, 04:18 PM
a = the total strength of all weapons held by trained soldiers / mercenaries + the total number of unarmed trained soldiers / mercenaries .b = the total strength of all weapons held by untrained soldiers / mercenaries + the total number of unarmed untrained soldiers / mercenaries .
c = the fortification or siege multiplier (see below ;))

Now you can calculate your SA and DA with the following formula:
((5*a)+(4*b))*c

Keep in mind that defence weapons only count for defence, and attack
weapons only count for attack. The same applies to trained soldiers ;)

So in general, it doesn´t matter if you have many soldiers with weak weapons or few soldiers with big weapons. But remember that with the stronger weapons you get more strength for the same gold ;)


Fortifications
Level - name - Cost - Multiplier - Upgrade at
2 - Stockade - 40,000 Gold (1 Invisibility Shield(s) or 1 Dragonskin(s)) - Multiplier: 1.25 - 17,778 DA
3 - Rabid Pitbulls - 80,000 Gold (1 Invisibility Shield(s) or 1 Dragonskin(s)) - 1.5 - 53,333 DA
4 - Walled Town - 160,000 Gold (1 Invisibility Shield(s) or 1 Dragonskin(s)) - 1.75 - 149,333 DA
5 - Towers - 320,000 Gold (1 Invisibility Shield(s) or 2 Dragonskin(s)) - 2.0 - 398,222 DA
6 - Battlements - 640,000 Gold (1 Invisibility Shield(s) or 4 Dragonskin(s)) - 2.25 - 1,024,000 DA
7 - Portcullis - 1,280,000 Gold (2 Invisibility Shield(s) or 9 Dragonskin(s)) - 2.5 - 2,560,000 DA
8 - Boiling Oil - 2,560,000 Gold (5 Invisibility Shield(s) or 17 Dragonskin(s)) - 2.75 - 6,257,778 DA
9 - Trenches - 5,120,000 Gold (9 Invisibility Shield(s) or 34 Dragonskin(s)) - 3.0 - 15,018,667 DA
10 - Moat - 10,240,000 Gold (18 Invisibility Shield(s) or 68 Dragonskin(s)) - 3.25 - 35,498,667 DA
11 - Drawbridge - 20,480,000 Gold (36 Invisibility Shield(s) or 137 Dragonskin(s)) - 3.5 - 82,830,222 DA
12 - Fortress - 40,960,000 Gold (73 Invisibility Shield(s) or 273 Dragonskin(s)) - 3.75 - 191,146,667 DA
13 - Stronghold - 81,920,000 Gold (146 Invisibility Shield(s) or 546 Dragonskin(s)) - 4.0 - 436,906,667 DA
14 - Palace - 163,840,000 Gold (291 Invisibility Shield(s) or 1092 Dragonskin(s)) - 4.25 - 990,321,778 DA
15 - Keep - 327,680,000 Gold (583 Invisibility Shield(s) or 2185 Dragonskin(s)) - 4.5 - 2,228,224,000 DA
16 - Citadel - 655,360,000 Gold (1165 Invisibility Shield(s) or 4369 Dragonskin(s)) - 4.75 - 4,980,736,000 DA
17 - Hand of God - 1,310,720,000 Gold (2330 Invisibility Shield(s) or 8738 Dragonskin(s)) - 5.0 - 11,068,302,222 DA


Siege Technologies
Level - name - Cost - Multiplier - Upgrade at
2 - Flaming Arrows - 40,000 Gold (1 Black Powder Missile(s) or 1 Excallibur(s)) - 1.33 - 14,222 SA
3 - Ballistas - 80,000 Gold (1 Black Powder Missile(s) or 1 Excallibur(s)) - 1.66 - 47,407 SA
4 - Battering Ram - 160,000 Gold (1 Black Powder Missile(s) or 1 Excallibur(s)) - 2.0 - 142,222 SA
5 - Ladders - 320,000 Gold (1 Black Powder Missile(s) or 2 Excallibur(s)) - 2.33 - 398,222 SA
6 - Trojan Horse - 640,000 Gold (1 Black Powder Missile(s) or 4 Excallibur(s)) - 2.66 - 1,061,926 SA
7 - Catapults - 1,280,000 Gold (2 Black Powder Missile(s) or 9 Excallibur(s)) - 3.0 - 2,730,667 SA
8 - War Elephants - 2,560,000 Gold (5 Black Powder Missile(s) or 17 Excallibur(s)) - 3.33 - 6,826,667 SA
9 - Siege Towers - 5,120,000 Gold (9 Black Powder Missile(s) or 34 Excallibur(s)) - 3.66 - 16,687,407 SA
10 - Trebuchets - 10,240,000 Gold (18 Black Powder Missile(s) or 68 Excallibur(s)) - 4.0 - 40,049,778 SA
11 - Black Powder - 20.480.000 - 4,333
12 - Sappers - 40.960.000 - 4,667
13 - Dynamite - 81.920.000 - 5,000
14 - Greek Fire - 163.840.000 - 5,333
15 - Cannons - 327.680.000 - 5,667

A note for the people who are going to say a few values are missing: I know :p I made this list a few ages ago, and some STs have been added since then ;) I haven´t calculated the upgrade at values for the new STs yet :p

You didn't have to do all that work... PR has had a list with the calculations for a long as I can remember (updated every age, for the changes that each age comes with). found here: http://www.phoenixrising.at/upgrades.html

mcm-never-dies
24th January 2007, 05:53 PM
I didn´t do all that work, I just copied it from my own guides too :p

btw- don´t look at the upgrade at values in the tables I posted, I found out a few weeks ago I miscalculated them :p