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Habsfan
4th July 2006, 06:49 PM
Mods here just moved the click cheaters thread.

It should not have been done, it is a major issue in koc, doesn't break GUA rules, nor does it have in game cheating accusations.

Why was it closed - I think some others would like to know it as well.

vengefuldeath87
4th July 2006, 06:53 PM
the fact that these people are now targeting the 2 biggest recruiters in the game, and ruining it for the rest of us sucks too, and they should be named and shamed.

CaveSlug
4th July 2006, 06:54 PM
slander with no posted proof.

CaveSlug

Habsfan
4th July 2006, 06:55 PM
True, but it doesn't go against any GUA rules (let it also be known that I only got to read to page 4). Faking on a recruiter isn't cheating in KoC so I don't think it should be moved.

JL-
4th July 2006, 06:56 PM
Yeah.. no way that thread should have been closed. I think people deserve an answer and some kind of proof.

Still dont understand why people are being banned for doing nothing wrong.. guess its guilty by association in the LaCN family.

JL

Habsfan
4th July 2006, 06:59 PM
Hey JL

I don't think the guilty by association people are being punished to badly - they are banned until they leave those that were caught with the fake recruiters, stops them from getting credits from those with the fakers.

Ady
4th July 2006, 07:12 PM
deleting thread was stupid, this will cause a chain of events

TRD will now be spammed
mods will moan
top rankers will be banned from TRD
gua becomes gay on a whole new level

Euthie
4th July 2006, 07:22 PM
yeah, kinda funny how they're all yelling and screaming about the fact that we cheated a recruiter...

lemme state: no we didn't! and we never had the intention to do so...we were just growing extremely well and they couldn't stand that fact..


if they're SO willing to make a statement about us being cheaters..let them post some PROOF!!!!

no proof, no accusations...no accusations, no crime....





Euth~

N-u-B-b-Y
4th July 2006, 07:51 PM
yeah, kinda funny how they're all yelling and screaming about the fact that we cheated a recruiter...

lemme state: no we didn't! and we never had the intention to do so...we were just growing extremely well and they couldn't stand that fact..


if they're SO willing to make a statement about us being cheaters..let them post some PROOF!!!!

no proof, no accusations...no accusations, no crime....





Euth~ lol go eur :D i agree i see no proof but someone saying i have proof pff show it then and also i like them so i dont care lol :D

Krystin
4th July 2006, 08:29 PM
First, it wasn't deleted. It was moved. Second, listing a group of people's names and saying they are cheating, no matter how they go about it, is a cheating accusation and not allowed. Doing it via a clicker, has to be discussed in how we are going to handle that, and until that decision is made it won't be allowed. You will be informed of the decision after it has been discussed. The other thing, someone saying they are cheating without proof, via clicker, is bullshit. You can't provide proof, don't bother putting it on here, whether we end up allowing it or not.

Habsfan
4th July 2006, 08:35 PM
The only thing you can show to prove someone is faking a clicker, without giving away too much is to show that the a person was clicked multiple times and did not actually grow.

I'll await the decision of the GUA mods, however as of right now the thread wasn't illegal.

Krystin
4th July 2006, 09:18 PM
No, you are right it wasnt, but it is also something we have not dealt with before so as soon as we are done discussing it (should be tomorrow) you will have an answer. The other problem I had with that thread, were others jumping on the clicker thing and actually calling others cheaters, and flaming and trolling others. So, if we do allow this discussion in the future, you have to understand that wouldnt be allowed. I know you know that habs...I'm stressing it, since it did happen, and no, not by you, but by some others. I want to keep GUA nuetral, but I do understand there are some things that do need discussed though I do have a problem with someone arbitrarly accusing people without the proof. Lets see what happens on the morrow.

ps...I don't get home until after 9 pm. I'm a full time working girl now, so you won't have an answer until at least then.

Balinor_creel
4th July 2006, 09:38 PM
Attempting in any way to circumvent the mechanisms set up to keep Kings of Chaos fair

if you are going to find grounds it is probabily going to come from that part of the KoC rules. Cheating on a recruiter is basically tricking people into clicking your link. No one would click someone's link on a recruiter if they thought they weren't going to be clicked back by the person.

Krystin
4th July 2006, 09:51 PM
Give me what you guys think. I do want to consider all aspects of this. Give me your arguments on why we should or should not allow it.

Sabbinthal
4th July 2006, 10:19 PM
I think it should be allowed as a fake clickers discussion. It maybe cheating people out of clicks but the crux of the matter is it is faking out the recruiters recording the credits. If I were to join one of those named chains then I would be banned from clickers and also possibly sabbed until I broke from chain. This may be the only place for me to find out about it. The whole KoC community should be aware if there are people fake clicking. I would not want one of my officers doing it and the clicker admins would be the ones to bring it to light, here at GUA. I agree about the flaming and trolling being an intolerable issue, but, I also have to agree with Krystin about the without proof aspect. Merv said in the original post he had screen shots from what sounded like an insider. I understand you may not want to show the back door of the clickers but there has to be some means of posting it for all to see and decide. Granted it is your clicker to do with what you like but, there are also peoples reputation at stake. You can ban people from them but to call someone a fake clicker should be backed up with proof. I'm sure the clicker admins had to give it considerable thought before taking that banning step and have what they believed to be proof. However, to post a list of names on GUA you should have to post some type of evidence also.

Sabbinthal

Blitz
4th July 2006, 10:48 PM
Actually, the rule as of right now is no cheating accusations, period, including recruiters. For example, some people may remember a certain player who used his recruiter to give himself and members of his command chain fake clicks, unbeknownst to those clicking on his recruiter. However, I couldn't say his name at the time or now.

There are two aspects to the "No cheating accusations" rule. 1) Cheating accusations cannot be proven by anyone other than the KoC Admins, in most cases. 2) Cheating accusations are almost always flaming, by nature. Since we're talking about out-game cheating, that makes point 1 moot. So, it's debatable whether or not to allow recruiter cheating accusations.

rdj
4th July 2006, 11:06 PM
But the koc admins don't regulate the recruiters as far as I know, vegna. That means that the ones that made the recruiter (in this case lacn) hold all the power to ban people as they see fit. However, it is true that this sort of thing would be a nightmare for the gua mods to attempt to regulate. What if you just made a closed, stickied thread with a link to the lacn forums, where I assume lacn has posted the same letter? It will give out information to important issues in koc, but you won't have to deal with the flaming that comes with it.

Habsfan
5th July 2006, 12:47 AM
No, you are right it wasnt, but it is also something we have not dealt with before so as soon as we are done discussing it (should be tomorrow) you will have an answer. The other problem I had with that thread, were others jumping on the clicker thing and actually calling others cheaters, and flaming and trolling others. So, if we do allow this discussion in the future, you have to understand that wouldnt be allowed. I know you know that habs...I'm stressing it, since it did happen, and no, not by you, but by some others. I want to keep GUA nuetral, but I do understand there are some things that do need discussed though I do have a problem with someone arbitrarly accusing people without the proof. Lets see what happens on the morrow.

ps...I don't get home until after 9 pm. I'm a full time working girl now, so you won't have an answer until at least then.

I know you guys are doing your best, but I gotta keep you all in shape by complaining a little bit :P

@ Vegna

Obviously I could argue your point that faking a recruiter isn't cheating, but really it would just be a circular argument and get us no where.



As others have said I think it is important to leave the thread up there so people know not to join certain chains if they want to grow (for instance if a person only had one commander change left, joined that chain and was auto-banned from all recruiters).

About neutrality/defending yourself: I think it would be vital for those accussed and banned to at least try and defend themselves, and for others to see who has been accused of what.

Keep up the good work mods :) (no, not sarcasm)

Sixix
5th July 2006, 01:17 AM
i think alliances should be allowed to name cheaters or cheating chains when they detect them. the alliances, who actually pay for the recruiter, make them public and offer them for free. if people think they still have to cheat on a recruiter, that comes basically for free, they can't really complain about getting banned, nor should the recruiter admins explain exactly how people have cheated or how they got detected to prevent further cheating ;)

perhaps next time the moderators should be more strict with moderating theses banning anouncments to avoid flaming and cheating accusations. since the thread didnt get deleted yet, the admins could delete the flaming and stuff, warn the people and move the thread back...

recruiters are important to that game, therefore people cheat on it. if alliances decide to ban people because they detected cheaters, they should be able to name them too!

vengefuldeath87
5th July 2006, 05:49 AM
This age pr has a policy with cw, that we will not ban anyone for a koc related reason, such as sabbing us. BSS will testify to this, and so will anyone else who is sabbing PR. Our aim is not to piss off large chains by banning them because they are hurting us in game. Pr also no longer does chain bans, every ban i have made was either becuse i found them to be fake clicking, or they were registered to the faker clickbitch. Just because you only used it on lacn to fake, doesnt mean you wont go use it on cw when lacn ban you, so yes, some of my bans were preventative measures.

I will not be unbanning anyone that i have banned, for the simple reason, if you were faking your gonna lie about it, in an attempt to get unbanned.

mikil100
5th July 2006, 06:37 AM
Binky makes a good point, I dont know how large of a scale this fake clicking was (if its true) but I dont think inoocent members should be banned, banning a whole chain is gonna get you a mess, and I noticed quite a few people leave that chain, but, the ones that stay are gonna be one helluva pain in the butt for laCN I think.

Stes_The_Destroyer
5th July 2006, 06:45 AM
well from everything i read and seen lol its kinda funny this :P

if they leave chain i have no doubts the lacn admins will unbann them, why would they want to be in the cheaters chain anyway unless wanna cheat themselves? as to them sabbing lacn, it wont just be lacn but es too as lacn have es support whenever they need it, no questions asked, and i'm sure it just wont be us too that will help out, a lot of koc hate the cheaters too :shithitfa

Sexy_Butt_Kicker
5th July 2006, 07:09 AM
well from everything i read and seen lol its kinda funny this :P

if they leave chain i have no doubts the lacn admins will unbann them, why would they want to be in the cheaters chain anyway unless wanna cheat themselves? as to them sabbing lacn, it wont just be lacn but es too as lacn have es support whenever they need it, no questions asked, and i'm sure it just wont be us too that will help out, a lot of koc hate the cheaters too :shithitfa

This is unreal_hottie btw


I was in ua chain because of a friend we had met. Pkus MATT...fibber that he is....OH MY GAWD AM I GONNA SAB HIM....swore he was playiong for rank and behaving. Now I have no clue if I was on that list, but I dont even know how to fake click. though I know Im banned! i did NOT join because I planned on cheating! I HAVENT CHEATED! AND NEITHER HAS ANYONE FROM AROL_PATHFINDER DOWN! Yet we are banned...being sabbed...and had to find out HERE why.

well we are gone from chain...with most planning to quit over this. and all I want is to be reinstated.

Solitude
5th July 2006, 07:38 AM
I'm gonna be controvertial here and say to disallow it, unless proof is provided. I've already seen people on that list being massed and sabbed.

#1 They may have been wrongly accused
#2 the proof may not hold up
#3 The list included people who received transfers from fake clickers, that in itself is not wrong, just shows that the person didn't know if theyir seller was cheating or not.

That said, if it was provided with proof that someone fake clicked, I believe it should be allowed.

N-u-B-b-Y
5th July 2006, 10:51 AM
i think that since there was no proof and it was a post that got these people massed once agian showing no proof that eveyone that sabbed them should fell really stuiped because you are making a war over somthing you have no idea yet whats going on so if i said i made a clicker and then 10 people i said faked click didnt shoe no proof and added stes name is everyone going too run and sab him ..... thats retarded (thought it be funny too use your name stes :D) also i wanted too share this with everyone because this shows that some people in koc seriously need too get a life ITS A GAME

Private Message: Re: wateva
Today, 09:18 AM
nimrod27
Junior Member
Member
User ID: 11022





Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3
Reputation: wateva

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
"omg this post again lol u didnt even show proof were is the proof that they did it .... and i for one hate cheaters but dont waste my time crying about it bann them from your clicker and thats that ....."



Dude, why dont YOU just shut up... Suppose the US Defence force got hacked, do you think they gonna show ppl how? Thought not... It'll just give others an idea how to hack in... And LaCN clicker is neutral, so there is proof needed only by the mods... And why would the ban a member of LaCN too?

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.................. lol us defence system huh lol ya koc rpg hmmm big difference lol LOSSER

Blitz
5th July 2006, 06:01 PM
rdj and habsfan: I wasn't taking a position in my post, merely stating the frame of the debate. ;)

Everyone else: This thread isn't about who may or may not have cheated. It's about if it will be allowed on GUA or not. So cut out the talk about x person or alliance, and wait for a decision. I'm sure there are threads about this on the LaCN and PR forums too, if you must air your frustrations about this specific case...

Krystin
5th July 2006, 08:50 PM
First question I have, Has anyone that has a recruiter accused members for cheating on that recruiter when in fact that did not happen? If my memory serves me right, since I don't play KOC anymore, that happened last age. Where entire chains were disallowed to click because someone they were associated with had cheated. I have a problem with mass punishment. I believe the person who does the crime, should pay for it, not anyone that didn't.

Second, the problem I have, is that anyone can make a list, but that does not mean its true. Without solid proof I have a major problem putting it on GUA because of the repercussions that can occur because of it. People are human, and people make mistakes.

Last, do these different alliances that have recruiters, keep this list on thier site? If so, maybe a compromise of putting the links to those sites could be done.

Habsfan
5th July 2006, 10:23 PM
First question I have, Has anyone that has a recruiter accused members for cheating on that recruiter when in fact that did not happen? If my memory serves me right, since I don't play KOC anymore, that happened last age. Where entire chains were disallowed to click because someone they were associated with had cheated. I have a problem with mass punishment. I believe the person who does the crime, should pay for it, not anyone that didn't.

Last age many chains were banned for fake clicking when only one or two members were, they were unbanned when they left chain, as far as I remember.

I somewhat agree with you, however the dilemma is this. Say X is banned for fake clicking, but X1 and X2 and X3 are his officers, he can simply give them the faker, so they can fake click. By banning the whole chain you can stop the fake clicking and don't have to worry about spreading.


Second, the problem I have, is that anyone can make a list, but that does not mean its true. Without solid proof I have a major problem putting it on GUA because of the repercussions that can occur because of it. People are human, and people make mistakes.

I've actually seen the click batches and how they are reported (I adminned on a site for a recruiter that never fully took off because some people quit the game, however we tested it quite a bit) and the evidence is pretty easy to spot, but if you show the logs it will be easy for others to see how to fake.


Last, do these different alliances that have recruiters, keep this list on thier site? If so, maybe a compromise of putting the links to those sites could be done.

Yes, LaCN has posted on their site about those banned, however I disagree with the compromise. I know GUA wants to be neutral, however there are people who do not visit the LaCN forums daily or even ever, so if they are banned they should be notified by GUA - the main KoC forum.

Also by trying the compromise we will just see the TRD discussion thread get flooded with what could easily just be posted in a new thread.

rdj
5th July 2006, 11:51 PM
Yay! I got addressed personally by vegna! (kinda). But I dunno where you thought I was suggesting you were taking a side (then again, it's 1:46 and i'm not gonna reread my post). I think I just suggested that you, the mods, make a kind of misc. thread where you put information like this. I mean, I wouldn't have even heard of this if it wasn't posted in gua, so why can't you just create a closed off thread that you can put pertinent info in?

Sixix
6th July 2006, 10:32 AM
the mods should really make a decison. all the recruiter stuff got into the TRD thread now :p

Shadow_
6th July 2006, 11:30 AM
Well I find it so amazing that going on 3 days now that some people left the chain and are still banned. I spoke with merv and he seemed to not show much effort to do anything about it. All I ever get is excuses.

ms_fishy
7th July 2006, 01:14 AM
few points here

- i support fake clicking discussion on GUA - where else can we talk about it if not here?

- to large extent i trust lacn/cw/cerbere admins enough when it comes to reporting fakeclicks - they have no reasons to lie and ban people who aren't involved because more valid clickers mean more links and better clickbacks on their system - even CW with bad reputation from last age has proved that it can now be trusted - yah, yah, i'm chaining PR/SAB and they haven't banned me yet ;)

- per the bannings

*of course fakers should be banned

*people who received fake clicks but real soldiers should be conditionally banned too - which means let them click on vacation mode until they pay back to each system every single click they stole, intentionally or not - that would be fair to them and to the rest of us who stay up nights clicking

*people from out of cheating chains who bought fake clicks should not go unpunished but maybe let them off lightly - if they can convince you that they have no knowledge of faking deal, put them on vacation mode and have them return 1/2 amount of credits known to be faked before you let them click again

*unban the guys who were/are in fakeclicking chains if 1) they can prove beyond reasonable doubt that they didn't fakeclick/ receive fakeclicks and 2) left the dubious chain for good

-last point LACN/CW/Cerbere coders should ask admin to *ban* the conspirators from koc because from what i heard they did it through security crack of koc server - next thing you know, they will be hacking to the database server and delete players from koc at will and/or give themselves 5 mil TFF/ 10 bil of each stat - wouldn't that be too hilarious?

suckulus
7th July 2006, 12:52 PM
First question I have, Has anyone that has a recruiter accused members for cheating on that recruiter when in fact that did not happen? If my memory serves me right, since I don't play KOC anymore, that happened last age. Where entire chains were disallowed to click because someone they were associated with had cheated. I have a problem with mass punishment. I believe the person who does the crime, should pay for it, not anyone that didn't.
while the legitimacy of banning whole chains can be debated, I do not think it should be a criteria for deciding whether or not recruiter-bans can be discussed on GUA. That is basically going against the whole "GUA nuetrality" thing, because you are only giving people who play they game a certain way a chance to explain themselves to the KoC community. Many people believe chain sabbing is wrong, and it is basically the same as chain bans. However, this is allowed to be discussed on GUA, because GUA remains neutral in clan warfare, as it should be. The personal opinions of GUA admins/mods about how alliances should use their tools (as long as they are not using them to cheat) is no valid criteria for determining whether it is discussable. Recruiter admins should be allowed to say "we banned XXX for XXX reason", whether people think it is a valid reason or not. This is the only place for them to explain, to the enitre KoC community, what happened.

Krystin
9th July 2006, 07:36 PM
This will be allowed. A thread is being set up for it and will be opened for such discussions . There will be rules...of course...like no trolling or flaming.

Habsfan
9th July 2006, 09:35 PM
This will be allowed. A thread is being set up for it and will be opened for such discussions . There will be rules...of course...like no trolling or flaming.

Oh, you've taken all the fun away :-P

I think this was a solid decision by the mods/admins, good work.

Ice_CLAN
11th July 2006, 01:17 AM
I really don't see the problem to let everyone knows who is cheating, cuz some guyz make a fuzz about their rank and is NOT cuz they are click monkeys or great commander, but for their tools and fake stuff.

Now I know who was talking BS in the top ranks discussion... and I think not only the clan that owns the recruiter should mass them... I think Everyone should do the same, cuz they r not only making the recruiter owner(S) a fools but to all of us who click the fake cc.