Fire Element Limitations

[Jin_the_Legend]

Fire:
Fire:
Fusion
Callisto
Armin Sharp
Anubis

This thread is only open for those users listed above, if you’d like to join in the discussion about the limitations of this element, PM one or all of those users in that list. If they feel you are deserving to take part in the discussion then they will talk to me about it and I’ll add your name to the list above.

Your objective is simple: Determine the limit of the Fire element.

Here are the only two descriptions of the Fire element you can base your discussion around, feel free to add or modify as you go if it‘s necessary:


Fire - Fire is a very destructive element and focuses mainly on offence, but there are also ways to use it for defense. Fire elements can use spells that have to do with fire, temperature, or even lava.

Fire
The Fire Element is reknowned for its sheer destructive capabilities, but it is quite dangerous in the hands of the unskilled. Fire Elementalists may manifest or manipulate fire, lava, and even temperature. It is typically associated with offense, but can also have defensive capabilities. Fire is effective against Bio and Water.
Hit Points: 130%
Mana Points: 160%
Physical Energy: 110%


Reaching a clear conclusion won’t be as easy as you may think. To get there I recommend asking or thinking about these things:


How can I expand on the definition already given? Is it possible?
What elements closely relate to this one and where do I draw the line where one begins and the other(s) ends?
What elements drastically differ from this one and do they have weak or strong impacts on this element? What is this elements weaknesses and strengths (against other elements)?
What effects does this element have on the user and the victim, are they physically? Spiritually? Mentally? And how much do they effect the user and victim?
What kind of abilities and spells should an acclaimed Master of the element be able to attain? What is impossible and what is attainable? What kind of abilities and spells should a beginner of the element be able to have when they first start off and how long does it take to attain those Master abilities? (Specifics can vary, spells can be generalized within groups or areas of the element, likewise the time it takes to gain some of those abilities can be in a general time frame as well. You may use either the stats to help you or more in a writing sense to answer some of those questions).


Those are guidelines to help you focus on the limits of this element. If you can all come to a clear and definite answer for those questions then you have succeeded in properly limiting the element.


Armin Sharp will be coordinating the discussion after this post. If he seems to be inactive and does not participate, Callisto will be the alternate Spokesman. If you have any questions concerning the discussions or element either Pm me or post them in this thread: http://www.giveupalready.com/showthread.php?t=1578&page=1&pp=10

[Armin Sharp]

Ok, I guess I should start things off here. I think the best way to deal with this is to take one subject at a time, so to start does anyone here have any problem with the Fire element the way it is now? By that I mean if there is some sort of skill that Fire elementalists can use that you think they shouldn't, like controling temperature or lava.

[Pstr2blvia]

I think of all the elements there are, fire is probably the most clearly defined elements there is. I think that it is clearly laid out in the descriptions above. As for spells that people should not be able to use, I have yet to actually run into one, save a few newb spells I would discount as sheer newbishness.

[Legion]

I think I have one. I've seen some spells called 'solar flame' or something. Which was basicly summoning fire from the sun (if you can call that 'fire'). I have always wondered how a single Fire elementalist could actually do that. The sun is too far away to be called upon by fire weilding people. I think that summoning fire from the sun should be impossible.

Another point of interest might be to how far a Fire elemental can reach when using a Firestorm or so. >.> But the same can be said about Lightning or Water I guess.

Temperature is something which can be manipulated by Fire elements, even if they are n00bs (though, I haven't seen that much spells using this branch of Fire). Though, I wonder to what extend it can or should go. And, can Fire elementalists actually manipulate temperature to the point where things cool off? I doubt that because that would be Water.

[Anubis]

I think Fire is probably the least problematic element. It's fairly simple: if it doesn't directly involve raising temperature, creating or manipulating fire or lava, then Fire probably can't do it.

As for cooling off, yes, Fire elementalists do have the ability to take in heat, which would make the air cooler, as the air is trying to gain back heat, and if the air is trying to suck the energy out of another warm body, it's going to feel cold.

[Armin Sharp]

About Solar Flame, I was the one who origionally taught that spell (though it was created by mc_y0ung). I'm not sure how the spell is being used, but basically what it is supposed to be is you gather heat from the sun to use as energy, then create a beam of fire from that energy. It's not ment to actually take fire from the sun, just use it as a source of energy.

As for the temperature, Fire is supposed to be the only element that can manipulate temperture (except for the actual Ice element, but nobody gets to use that). When Water and Ice were merged it was decided that since Fire can completely control temperature already by adding or taking away heat Water doesn't need to control temperature even though they can control ice. Of course a Water elementalist can make things colder by filling a room with ice and letting the ice gradually cool it off, but they aren't directly supposed to manipulate temperature.

[Anubis]

I second that 100%.

[Pstr2blvia]

I agree with Armin's explanation. In fact I have started to branch into the cooler side of fire, one of the first one I think. I got a few of them, and they operate as you said, by removing heat and thus causing the temperature to drop.

[Anubis]

Most of those have already been made, it's just that no one really uses them all that much. Probably because it's evolve into just sucking all the heat out of someone's body or just cooking them outright, which would be godmoding.

[Callisto]

With the idea about taking heat away, I'm not for that in any way, at this point. How does fire, an element that burns and emits heat gain the ability to absorb heat? I know Solar Flame involves taking the solar heat energy and mixing it with your energy, but that's a source that is constantly giving energy, unlike the air which is just heated by the sun. The air actually retains little of the heat form the sun, and the earth absorbs most of it, then it gives off the heat inot the air, thus heating it. So if you wanted to lower the temperature of the air, you would have to either:
1. Do something with the air molecules, which is Wind's category.
OR
2. Somehow take heat out of the ground, which I don't see as possible for a fire elementalist.

Also, I'd like to review some of the fire spells and see if we can make them fit under the nature of mana-fire (as opposed to real fire). I'll list spells from my stats that I am thinking need changing. The bolded part is what I changed, if anything.

Fire Shards: 20 flickers of fire are formed, each capable of putting a small hole in steel; (20 MP) [mc_y0ung] [Level 25]
-I don't see how mana-fire is able to become a shard of metal, so I think it should just be fire.-

Fire Dome: A thin dome of fire appears around the caster of this spell. The flames are so small that they can be seen through, but strong enough to block anything from getting in or out. Lasts until user lets it down or runs out of MA. (50 MP per Turn + 1 MP for every 5 Damage stopped or 1 MP for every 1 Water damage stopped) [Level 25]
-It's kinda hard to picture this spell blocking anything water with the same ease as any other element, and I think the amount of MP per damage stopped was a little high, so I think it should be 5 damage per MP added to the additional cost per turn.-

Fire Transformation: The ability to transform your entire body into fire. While in fire form, only spells can hurt you, and you may not wield a weapon as it would fall through your hand. Water and Ice spells and weapons deal double damage to you. (100 MP per turn)[Level 35; Prerequisite: Fire Fist, Firey Touch & Fire Levitation]
-I mean, it makes sense to add that in since while learning it weapons' blades pass through, and the description says so as well (Underlined means possible addition).-

I know my opinion isn't the final decision, but I think this makes sense.

[Anubis]

Since you control heat, your are drawing heat into your body. When you draw heat into your body, heat around you lowers. However, due to rapid diffusion, I believe that it is not at all possible, even for a great Fire master, to go to the other end of the spectrum and create any spells that would chill, let alone freeze, the target.

Callisto, I think the thread's more about the element itself, not spells specifically. But you make excellent points on each spell, especially the last one, and I applaud your changes and hope that they will spread.

[Armin Sharp]

Callisto, this isn't really for discussing specific spells, but the element as a whole. Bascially we're going to make a new defination for the element that will better explain it, and possibly set new limitations. With the exception of Fire Shards, the spells you listed aren't problems with the element but problems with how the spells are RPed wich isn't what we're here to discuss. But about Fire Shards, like I said in the main thread I've never actually RPed them as being made of metal, nor should they be. I guess it would be better if the description was changed, but it might be hard to get everyone who learned the spell to change it.

And about the cooling, Anubis basically said everything there is to say. Fire users can control not only fire, but lava and heat as well (just like it says in the definition). That's why fire is capable of making the temperature cooler.

[Callisto]

I know this is for restrictions, but some of those spells have some properties that I think should be fixed. I wasn't planning on that post being the final change. I also figured this was a good place to announce changes to cirtain spells. After this discussion is done, we show the edited spells at the end and let anyone who has that spell change accordingly.

Since you control heat, your are drawing heat into your body. When you draw heat into your body, heat around you lowers. However, due to rapid diffusion, I believe that it is not at all possible...
Agreed, but even if you do draw in heat, which I think is kinda wierd anyway, it should be from really close around you, like Solar Flame. You shouldn't be able to change an entire battlefield's environment. The earth would give off enough heat to replace what you took away. If we are allowed to control the temperature at a cirtain place, then that seems a bit too god-abilitied to do. A restriction: Fire elements can create heat, but not make things cooler.

[Armin Sharp]

The reason why it would work is that you draw in the heat faster than the earth lets it off. Making temperature cooler isn't really something you can do effectivly outside without a lot of effort, but inside a building it isn't that hard.

[Anubis]

Callisto, spells should be for another thread, not this one.


You shouldn't be able to change an entire battlefield's environment.Technically, a Fire elementalist could. However, this would require an outstanding master. Additionally, within an instant, diffusion would have caused the temperature to even out, so unless the Fire elementalist is capable of taking all the heat from the entire earth's atmosphere, it's beings, and within the earth itself, this will never prove to be much of an advantage and a Fire elementalist will never be able to chill or freeze anything aside from a miniscule, pin-point location that requires all of the master's concentration, focus, and power.

My suggestion for an "amendment", in agreement with Callisto: The Fire Element grants its users control over heat and temperature, but scientific law prevents the noticeable cooling of temperature in most cases.

[Armin Sharp]

Anubis, I know what you're getting at with that, but the way you worded it makes it sound like if you try to cool anything at all it will be useless. As long as you're not trying to cool a huge area you should be able to make a noticable difference but not enough so much that you can freeze stuff.

[Anubis]

It won't be noticeable. Read the information about diffusion. If you're hiding in a big freezer, you could try to freeze objects, and it could probably work. But the world is not a freezer, and the air is not a small, solid object. In rare instances, yes, cooling could work, which is why I stated "most" under the Element description. By and by, though, no Fire elementalist can just run around and shoot iceballs at people.

[Armin Sharp]

I don't think anyone's trying to say that Fire elementals should be able to shoot ice, but I think that you should add in that cooling can work effectivly in a closed space (such as inside a building) since there aren't many sources supplying heat inside a building.

[Callisto]

Callisto, spells should be for another thread, not this one.
This a convenient place to do it, but if everyone thinks this doesn't belong here, than I will after this is done with.

Alright, so a Fire elementalist cannot change the air, but I'll agree with Armin that they can do a building, but of reasonable size. Nothing larger than a sports stadium let's say.


Fire - Fire is a very destructive element and focuses mainly on offence, but there are also ways to use it for defense. Fire elements can use spells that have to do with fire, temperature, or even lava.

Fire
The Fire Element is reknowned for its sheer destructive capabilities, but it is quite dangerous in the hands of the unskilled. Fire Elementalists may manifest or manipulate fire, lava, and even temperature. It is typically associated with offense, but can also have defensive capabilities. Fire is effective against Bio and Water.
Hit Points: 130%
Mana Points: 160%
Physical Energy: 110%

Although, I do believe that the temperature the description is talking about refers to raising it, but I suppose I'll be fine with absorbing small amounts of air, however, at a high MP cost with some PP, since Anubis says it would take a master to do that.

Amended Element:
Fire: Fire is a very destructive element and focuses mainly on offence, but there are also ways to use it for defense. Fire elements can use spells that have to do with fire, temperature, or even lava. With fire, users are capable of making balls, beams, and any other shape. With the ability to change temerature, the user may raise the temperature, but may only lower the temperature within a confined area. The user may use lava almost as if it were fire, except the user may not do anything with it after it has come above ground or hardened.

[Anubis]

Which is why I said, "most". If there is really good reasoning, then it will be treated on a case-by-case basis. If someone uses or makes up a spell that freezes without good enough reasoning, they will be told that it isn't part of the element, just like someone with Earth throwing planets at people. For example, the cooling spell could work if the user was very proficient with the Fire Element, and it was in a well-insulated structure farther from the earth, such as an office at the top of a skyscraper.

As for the element definitions, I'll probably have a section in the guide with a list of do's and don't's for each element.

[Pstr2blvia]

I like the description, think it portrays the qualities of a fire mage fairly and honestly. I just wish I could have thrown my 2 cents into the discussion about cooling, but from the looks of it, you guys got what I was saying about cooling. I make it clear when I teach these skills (only taught them to two people) that they are limited in scope, usually stretching out no further than 10-20 feet radius.

[Armin Sharp]

I don't think we need a final definition yet Callisto, but that's probably close to what we'll end up with. For now, we've still got a few things to look at on that list of things to do that Jin posted.




How can I expand on the definition already given? Is it possible?
What elements closely relate to this one and where do I draw the line where one begins and the other(s) ends?
What elements drastically differ from this one and do they have weak or strong impacts on this element? What is this elements weaknesses and strengths (against other elements)?
What effects does this element have on the user and the victim, are they physically? Spiritually? Mentally? And how much do they effect the user and victim?
What kind of abilities and spells should an acclaimed Master of the element be able to attain? What is impossible and what is attainable? What kind of abilities and spells should a beginner of the element be able to have when they first start off and how long does it take to attain those Master abilities? (Specifics can vary, spells can be generalized within groups or areas of the element, likewise the time it takes to gain some of those abilities can be in a general time frame as well. You may use either the stats to help you or more in a writing sense to answer some of those questions).


1) We can't really make a new definition until we've decided on all the changes, so we'll have to leave that out for now.

2) I don't think there is any element that is close to Fire, unless there is something I'm forgetting, so I don't think we need to do anything with that one.

3) The strengths and weaknesses again are easy to think of, Fire is weak mainly against Water and strong against Bio. Is there anything else about this that needs to be discussed?

I think we can just deal with those for now (2 and 3 at least), then go onto the next ones afterward.

[Callisto]

Ah! I'm not giving a final description, I'm just offering suggestions, and obviously, it's fine with Zadok.

For Armin's list:
1) New definition suggested on previous page.

2) Lightning is in it's own way close to fire in that it can make fire, but that's nothing much since fire can make a weak sort of wind.

3) Fire is good against: Bio, Earth, and Ice-type spells. I added Earth because fire burns wood obviously, and can be quite destructive to it.
Fire is weak against: Water

4) The effect fire has on the user isn't much. Just use the mana. Some attacks can do burn damage, which affects the opponent. Fire has no mental or spiritual side-effects.

[Anubis]

I think we've basically got it down. Jin's guide is misleading, so forget about that. What we need to focus on now is seeing if there are any ways Fire could be misused through misinterpretation. So far, I can't really see one aside from the temperature thing.

[Armin Sharp]

Callisto, your right about how Fire is good against wood, but that really isn't supposed to be part of Earth (it hasn't been since Bio was created, but nobody really got that). When all the elements are updated trees and stuff might not be a part of Earth, but if not I guess we'll just change that.

There's one other point that I've been meaning to bring up but I keep forgetting. As it is right now there is nothing to say that I can't incinerate my opponent from the inside with the Fire element, I think we need a restriction to prevent that. I think there should be a restriction that says you can't have your Fire energy in someone elses body because it makes god modding too easy. I know that I have a spell that does just that even though I've never used it and never plan to (except for the odd time I use it on a tree branch) but I think we should make sure that isn't allowed.

[Pstr2blvia]

Though you make a valid point Armin, I think that you have gone overboard. Yes, the situation that you described is indeed god-modding, that is not something that an experienced fire mage would do as it is god-modding. However, to say that you cannot attack someone from the inside out is too much of a restriction. That would eliminate Fiery Touch and my spell Fever. Though it is not as powerful as the one you described, the idea is that by touching my opponent I am able to inject a portion of my fire energy into his body and cause his core temperature to rise slowly over time. Again though limiting god-modding is important, I don't think it is wise to limit this area either as it would limit several experienced RPers (myself for example) from using their imagination in creating new and different spells.

Restrictions, though useful, are not effective. I simply think we should make a clear definition of Fire, as we have done, and then let the end users determine how they will use it. If they go overboard, so be it and they will be labeled as a god-modder. But to place restrictions like this upon an element would stifle the creativity of the RPer, not exactly what we want to encourage in Free-Form RPing.

[Armin Sharp]

Ya, I guess you're right. I guess we'll have to just trust people not to use a spell like that, and I should probably change the description of my spell so that nobody sees it and thinks it's ok.

So pretty much all we need to do is think of a few abilities that only a master of the element is able to preform, such as turning any part of your body into fire or taking heat from a room (I think someone said that should be something only masters can do). Is there anything else than anyone can think of that is a really advanced ability?

[Callisto]

That would eliminate Fiery Touch and my spell Fever.
Well, Firey Touch actually goes inside and burns it, and there's actually a risk for you...you're within slicing distance of your opponent. By Armin's description, I get the idea that he just sends his fire energy into the opponent and then he gets burned.

Fire Manipulation. Without a doubt this could be the most powerful counter for all Fire-mages. Anyone who is not a master should not be able to learn this spell. If someone is a master, but loses his position, should the spell be taken away form him/her or not? Also, do we want to think of a "Masters' Spell" that you have to be a master to know and use? This goes along with the thread in vB2 GUA where we were limiting the number of masters for each element. Only a certain few should be able to know this.

[Pstr2blvia]

Well I believe that Flame Manipulation should obviously be limited to a fire primary as it would require a tremendous amount of skill/control to master the technque. I don't know about making it so that only master's can use it, but definitely make it a high level skill. I don't know how everyone else does it, but I require that the student have a strong understanding in the fiery element. They also have to bust their butt in the dojo to achieve the skill (ie it takes about three times longer than most skills to learn).

As for the Master's Spell, I think there could perhaps be a collection of spells (maybe 4-5) that only Master's could use, a Master's spellbook if you will. This would make the title of Master a bit more special. I do like that Idea. Perhaps would could make it so that everyone that becomes a master would create a spell to add to the book, and only those that are current masters are able to use the spells in the list?

[Anubis]

What we could do is have tests for mastership, so that not just anyone can do stuff with element. To ensure that the most powerful and tempting spells are not godmoded with in ugly ways, we could do tests where a person has to pass it for mastership. That includes us. We'll give each other quick spars consisting of the powerful attacks, and then everyone will look over things, and, together, judge the spell use and roleplaying, commenting on both.

We shouldn't necessarily have a "Master's Spellbook", as anything outside of it would be okay. What we could do is set general guidelines that set the boundaries for non-masters. Since I think we're done with the rest of the Fire stuff, I think it's okay to discuss this. Plus it'll return some nice honor to the "normal" Elements.

[Armin Sharp]

I the Anubis is right, we don't really need a spell book for masters, just a guideline that says what kind of spells can't be used by people who haven't mastered the element.

Callisto, maby you could split that spell into two parts; manipulating your own fire spells (which isn't particularly hard) and manipulating your opponents fire spells (which you would need to be a lot stronger to do). That way you could teach new students to manipulate their own spells because that helps alot in teaching more advanced spells, then when they get stronger you could teach them to manipulate their opponent's spells as either a different ability or as an upgrade of what you already taught them.

[Legion]

About Solar Flame, I was the one who origionally taught that spell (though it was created by mc_y0ung). I'm not sure how the spell is being used, but basically what it is supposed to be is you gather heat from the sun to use as energy, then create a beam of fire from that energy. It's not ment to actually take fire from the sun, just use it as a source of energy.

I see. If so, there isn't any problem with the spell, other then some n00b misunderstanding it. Easily delt with.


Amended Element:
Fire: Fire is a very destructive element and focuses mainly on offence, but there are also ways to use it for defense. Fire elements can use spells that have to do with fire, temperature, or even lava. With fire, users are capable of making balls, beams, and any other shape. With the ability to change temerature, the user may raise the temperature, but may only lower the temperature within a confined area. The user may use lava almost as if it were fire, except the user may not do anything with it after it has come above ground or hardened.

Seems like a good definition to me.


For Armin's list:
1) New definition suggested on previous page.

2) Lightning is in it's own way close to fire in that it can make fire, but that's nothing much since fire can make a weak sort of wind.

The only other element I can think of which is simulair to Fire is Dark, but only because both can be invoked by emotion. Though, for Fire, I'm guessing the emotions are more good or neutral; passion, love, 'normal' anger and the like, where Dark uses fear, grief, rage, loathing etc.


3) Fire is good against: Bio, Earth and Ice-type spells. I added Earth because fire burns wood obviously, and can be quite destructive to it.
Fire is weak against: Water

Wind can also be quite powerful against Fire, though Water is far better at it.


4) The effect fire has on the user isn't much. Just use the mana. Some attacks can do burn damage, which affects the opponent. Fire has no mental or spiritual side-effects.

Agreed. The effect of emotions being used isn't that big; people tend to piss people off when they try to hack their head off :heh:...


Fire Manipulation. Without a doubt this could be the most powerful counter for all Fire-mages. Anyone who is not a master should not be able to learn this spell. If someone is a master, but loses his position, should the spell be taken away form him/her or not? Also, do we want to think of a "Masters' Spell" that you have to be a master to know and use? This goes along with the thread in vB2 GUA where we were limiting the number of masters for each element. Only a certain few should be able to know this.

Um... I take it that this means the manipulation of fire other then that you created yourself? The name's somewhat misleading.

I don't think this should be an element reserved only for those who are masters of the Fire element currently. Those who have trained enough in the element (and have reached the point of being capable of being a master themselves) should be able to gain it (though note that at that point, they probably still have to learn the thing).

The idea of certain spells which are only attainable as long as you're a master of that element isn't something I like. I can't put my finger on it, but it just seems wrong to do; some people will never bother to become a master, yet they already can if they wanted too. Should we really deny them those spells? I think not.

[Armin Sharp]

The only other element I can think of which is simulair to Fire is Dark, but only because both can be invoked by emotion. Though, for Fire, I'm guessing the emotions are more good or neutral; passion, love, 'normal' anger and the like, where Dark uses fear, grief, rage, loathing etc.
I've personally never incorperated emotions into the Fire element, and even though many people say Fire is related to anger I haven't really seen it used that way. Either way though, I don't think that Fire is close enough to dark that we need to worry about stating how they are different.


Um... I take it that this means the manipulation of fire other then that you created yourself? The name's somewhat misleading.

I don't think this should be an element reserved only for those who are masters of the Fire element currently. Those who have trained enough in the element (and have reached the point of being capable of being a master themselves) should be able to gain it (though note that at that point, they probably still have to learn the thing).

The idea of certain spells which are only attainable as long as you're a master of that element isn't something I like. I can't put my finger on it, but it just seems wrong to do; some people will never bother to become a master, yet they already can if they wanted too. Should we really deny them those spells? I think not.

About the spell, it gives the ability to manipulate your own spells and your opponent, which is why Callisto said it should be advanced. But since manipulating your own spells is important to know I think the spell should be split in two (like I said in my last post).

I agree with you in saying that certain spells shouldn't be only for masters to use. I think that the most advanced spells should be useable by characters who have masterd the element, not necessarily meaning that they are teaching to others, just that they have spent a lot of time learning the element and have a strong knowledge and good skill with the element.

[Legion]

I've personally never incorperated emotions into the Fire element, and even though many people say Fire is related to anger I haven't really seen it used that way. Either way though, I don't think that Fire is close enough to dark that we need to worry about stating how they are different.

Fire being related to anger is a stereotype I guess. I'm not sure how Fire is being taught and whether it still involves using one's emotions, but it's the way it was taught to me; Flippin_Mental often said that Fire was the only element which related to emotions at all, and he was my teacher. I might be the only one left who uses emotions I guess. :heh:


About the spell, it gives the ability to manipulate your own spells and your opponent, which is why Callisto said it should be advanced. But since manipulating your own spells is important to know I think the spell should be split in two (like I said in my last post).

I agree on that. In my opinion, just generating a fire is manipulation. And then, you still have to form it into a ball, or a sword, or whatever you want it to be, which I'm sure is manipulation. Without this 'fire manipulation' as some basic skill, you wouldn't be able to use Fire as an element at all!

[Callisto]

Fire being related to anger is a stereotype I guess. I'm not sure how Fire is being taught and whether it still involves using one's emotions, but it's the way it was taught to me; Flippin_Mental often said that Fire was the only element which related to emotions at all, and he was my teacher. I might be the only one left who uses emotions I guess. :heh:
Um, yeah. Armin and I just use mana for normal fire spells. However, Fusion created a whole set of "Hell" fire spells which do involve emotions to make the fire more powerful. I only have 2 Spells of those.


I agree on that. In my opinion, just generating a fire is manipulation. And then, you still have to form it into a ball, or a sword, or whatever you want it to be, which I'm sure is manipulation. Without this 'fire manipulation' as some basic skill, you wouldn't be able to use Fire as an element at all!
Alright, so I'll split it into two spells, and in the thread I'll be making I'll be sure to try to make the cost for controlling others' attacks cost more than the single one we have now, in which that cost will be used for your own spells. Although Armin, you'll be a major part in that spell because, as far as I know, you made it.


We shouldn't necessarily have a "Master's Spellbook", as anything outside of it would be okay. What we could do is set general guidelines that set the boundaries for non-masters. Since I think we're done with the rest of the Fire stuff, I think it's okay to discuss this. Plus it'll return some nice honor to the "normal" Elements.
I think students of fire would recognize that those spells are very powerful and they shouldn't go above those, but you do have a point.

Armin, I think we need to come up with the 4-5 points that are fire's limitations. Post your suggestions.

[Anubis]

I think that the most advanced spells should be useable by characters who have masterd the element, not necessarily meaning that they are teaching to others, just that they have spent a lot of time learning the element and have a strong knowledge and good skill with the element.That's exactly what I was saying. This could be accomplished by short tests; we could get most of the masters done quite quickly as they battle against each other. The term "Master" now means nothing to me. Just about anyone could become a Master with minimal elemental knowledge, and someone who isn't teaching isn't considered a master.

Legion, you can use emotions for anything; that's part of the character, not the element. It's just dark that uses those emotions to fuel a particular, Dark, emotional energy.


Without this 'fire manipulation' as some basic skill, you wouldn't be able to use Fire as an element at all!You could. There's a difference between manifestation and manipulation. You could always create fire in the certain form, or just use unshaped fire.

Fusion, these points will probably involve stupid shit like "Fire cannot shrink whales."

[Armin Sharp]

By the limitations do you mean things that Fire can't do at all, or does it include things that are hard to do but possible for advanced Fire users to do?

[Anubis]

Things the Fire Element isn't capable of. Basically, an end statement.

Fire Element: Fire elementalists may manifest and manipulate fire. They may also control temperature, but in most cases may not cool the air.

[Armin Sharp]

I can't really thing of anything other than that except for something to do with Lava. I can't remember for sure, but didn't we decide that you can't control lava after it has reach the surface or something like that? I'm pretty sure there was something about the mentioned, but I don't know if it was made definate.

[Anubis]

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Though I like it, I do think that lava really should be for Earth. We could probably make lava-like fire, but otherwise we'd have people having obsidian and stuff like that that really should be for Earth I think.

[Callisto]

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Though I like it, I do think that lava really should be for Earth. We could probably make lava-like fire, but otherwise we'd have people having obsidian and stuff like that that really should be for Earth I think.
Yes, obsidian would definately be Earth's category, but as long as it's a molten substance we can use it. Like my Magma Slam spell, it brings up magma from below and shoots it up through a created crack. That is all a fire elementalist should be able to do with laval/magma in my opinion. Although an Earth can do that too, they can go beyond the surface with the molten rock and do something with it. I guess that is where we overlap with them, but only there.

[Anubis]

I like the lava, but to be honest, unless the lava is already above ground, I don't think a fire elementalist should be able to reach down through the earth's crust and pull out lava through the crust. Though I would think, on a tangential note, that an Earth and Fire elementalist would be able to nearly create lava by using earth and fire together.

[Callisto]

Well, if you're including the fact that I made a hole in the ground for it to come out of, then there may be a discussion about that. I've seen someone's stats where they have the lava come form above the opponent and drop on them. Now that shouldn't be allowed. Anubis, if it's above ground it wil start cooling much quicker than if it were underground which will make it less like fire. Anyone else take one of the sides? One side: Lava uncontrollable underground, but above it is, or Side two: just the opposite.

[Legion]

I'll take side two. Magma (if I remember correctly that's how lava's called underground) should be controlable by Fire elementalists, though perhaps not by weak ones. But, Fire elementalists can only control it to the point where it bursts free from the Earth's crust; after that they can't control it anymore, unless they reheat it again to make it a liquid. Which would be a waste of energy.

It's true that Earth and Fire overlap at this point, though I think that in Earth, there's more 'exploding' power and hurling debris around (which would be more powerful), where with Fire it would be a geiser of molten rock (and just that). Somehow I've got the feeling you don't really need to go through the earth's crust in order to pull the latter one off.

In my opinion, volcanic activity such as erruptions and lava / magma manipulation kinda fall in the gab between Fire and Earth; they are both, some way or the other. I don't think only people with a combination of Earth / Fire or Fire / Earth can pull this off, though. The limit as to how skilled one can be in a secondary element is not sufficient to pull this off.

[Armin Sharp]

I think we should just allow lava to be manipulated to the point that it breaks though the earth's crust because otherwise it would be too powerful. If you are allowed to manipulate lava when it's on the survace you could heat up some rocks until they melt, then create a huge wava of lava that chases your opponent around. Even though in most cases it isn't RPed that way lava can easily kill someone just by touching them once, which is why I think it's best that we make it uncontrolable to an extent, by making it so you can't manipulate it after it reaches the surface.

[Anubis]

Magma is Earth. Look at what magma is; it's completely Earth-related aside from its heat. Plus, any Fire elementalist strong enough to bring lava from beneath the crust all the way up through it, they're completely wasting their concentration and energy; energy that could be spent to simply create fire many times more destructive.

[Armin Sharp]

So should we just say that Fire elementalists can make lava (by heating rock) but can't control it?

[Anubis]

Yeah, I think so. Just let me have a few last words with my lava spells...

[Armin Sharp]

I guess that's probably best, there isn't really any reason for Fire to be able to control lava except for the heat, so it's probably better that we leave the ability to control lava to the Earth elementalists, and the ability to actually create it to Earth/Fire combos. Does anyone else have anything to say about getting rid of lava?

[Callisto]

So we can make lava, but we can't control it? If we turned rock below us, say 10 feet, to lava, it would be making a hole in the ground and the heat would need a way to get out because the rock would melt but since there'd be gas, the gas would expand and then be pressurized. For my Magma Slam spell, if my chracter hit the ground with the force to make a crack, the magma would want to fly up, so I think I could still do that, but I'd have to change how I RPed it. Anyone agree?

[Armin Sharp]

If you heat it up enough to give it a lot of pressure then I guess that would work, since you aren't really controling it. Of course, you wouldn't be able to use very much lava because it would take a lot of energy to create.

Anyway, I think we're done that so we've got two things that Fire can't do, but you said we needed 5 or something like that. Can anyone think of anything else? Possibly something that comes close to immitating another element even if it isn't much.

[Anubis]

Not really, though I do think some of the Fire spells we use are outdated, and that most of us should get to work on some of them... especially the fire transformation ones. Like how physical and magical damage is taken in that special form, and if the person can actually hold anything. I think Callisto or Fusion mentioned that they wouldn't be able to hold anything, but still remember it would be possibly to not do a complete transformation, leaving perhaps a hand or two normal, maybe some other things.

[Callisto]

I originally suggested that those in the Fire Transformation-state couldn't hold weapons. However, I think that if you had a hand not turned to fire, it would probably fall off. You can have things turned to fire at the ends of things (i.e. Fire Fist, Fire Levitation), but I don't think you should be able to have parts between ends and the body to be fire. It just wouldn't make sense to me. Which, even if your hand didn't fall off, but only dropped to the ground with fire still attached, that brings me to something I don't think should be able to be done. If the fire attatches to your hand as it's lying on the ground, then your arm extended. If you used Fire Manipulation, you could stretch your body into any shape and use melee attacks at unreasonably long distances. If we went into that I think Fire would become more powerful than a non-restricted element should be. So, Fire cannot be used to morph your body's shape (with the exception of Fire Teleportation). Side Note: That was a suggestion, so please don't harp on me.

[Legion]

Um... You guys kinda lost me on the lava bit. From what I can tell, one can make lava, and somehow make it burst out, but not control it (meaning it can't suddenly turn to the right and home in on it's target)?

As for transforming into fire, I don't think that is possible (other then turning yourself gasious and teleporting but that's kind of risky; a Wind elementalist could easily rip you appart in that form). So I agree on Callisto there.

[Armin Sharp]

Actually we decided that it is better to not control lava at all, though you can still make it by heating rock you can't really make it do anything else.

And about Fire transformation, I know that manipulating your body would be a powerful technique, but I don't think it is that amazing. Besides, other elements can basically do the same thing without transforming their body and manipulating it. Wind is the most obvous example, they can just use the air to levitate a sword and use it however they want. I'm sure lightning elementalist could do the same thing but using charges, so it really isn't that special.