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kaka duck
9th March 2005, 07:44 PM
not sure if this has been suggested before, but ..

my best friend and i were discussing some aspects of the chain alliances/clans, and currently, there's really not that much benefit for being an officer. figuring that there should be some type of reward or compensation for being an officer, we came up with a proposal/idea.

so, in order for each and every officer to benefit from each commander and one another, all the officers should get gold compensation at every turn.

let's say that A represents the top commander, and BCDE_ are all officers under each other..

A
..B
....C
......D
........E
..........F
............G
..............H
................I

at each turn :

A gives 10 gold to B
A gives 8 gold to C
A gives 6 gold to D
A gives 4 gold to E
A gives 2 gold to F
A gives nothing to G

sounds simple right? continuing..

in that same chain,

C gives 10 gold to D
C gives 8 gold to E
C gives 6 gold to F
C gives 4 gold to G
C gives 2 gold to H
C gives nothing to I

this chain compensation would only go 5 down. so..

G starts getting from B, and not A
H gets from C, and not A or B
I gets from D
etc, etc..

that way, the whole clan benefits.

and if you're thinking thas gonna put a major drain on the top guy, remember, he still gets all the clicks from his officers -- so hence (theory), his army should be growing. and the compensation would only go down the chain 5 guys.

that way, in as much as the commander is getting help from his officers -- so too, is his officers getting help from him. so in essence, it would prolly benefit the weakest player most (in theory); since, they would be getting gold from the next 5 commanders above them.

if anything, we could use a percentage system instead of the 10/8/6/4 gold ratio -- such as, 0.001 for B from A; 0.0001 for C from A; etc. actually, bAD IDEA.

anyways, hopefully i made sense..

what do yah all think..?


[ EDIT ] : my apologies. i INCORRECTLY listed the wrong gold distribution in the example. so hopefully, i clarified it correctly tHIS time=)

Diaboli
9th March 2005, 08:04 PM
everyone would flock to denny and LordStiker

the conecept is good, but the results woudlnt be

Phyrus
9th March 2005, 08:26 PM
everyone would flock to denny and LordStiker

the conecept is good, but the results woudlnt be

couldnt agree more, however there is also some math error in there too. i can see it but cant explain... right now

Laudimir
9th March 2005, 09:09 PM
Yeah, I think there is a major error in that initial idea...It isn't clear, but were you saying that the commander in the top of the chain would give each officer 10 gold, then their officers 8 gold, and so on down the chain, down branches down? Then, it would, restart at the 2nd branch, rather than the 1st? In such a way that the fifth branch down would recieve money from the initial commander at 2gp, then 4gp from the 2nd commander, 6gp from the 3rd commander and 8gp from the 4th commander? Something similar to that?

I think that the idea could have some merit, but only if commanders were able to "ditch" their officers.

Also, there shouldn't be a chain like that. Each officer should be given perhaps 10 gold from the officer above him, if it were to be fair.

I personally disagree with this idea. I only have 5 officers, but I bust my butt for them, lol. If I had gotten the help that I give them, I would probably be in the top 1k by now! I think that officers get the benefit from the aid given from their commanders, etc.

kaka duck
9th March 2005, 09:33 PM
everyone would flock to denny and LordStiker

the conecept is good, but the results woudlnt be

no. not necessarily.

if the gold was set at a static rate of 10 for the first tier, 8 for second, etc, then it wouldn't matter who or how strong your commander is.

if anything, it'd work more as a deterant to having a rather large clan (or actually, having many officers under you)..

thereby, spreading the chain down-ward and not "wide" out.

another thing about it is that it may balance the game a bit by forcing the top commanders to help out the lower-ranked individuals (again, in theory)..


couldnt agree more, however there is also some math error in there too. i can see it but cant explain... right now

i agree.

however, once you have the basic concept of it down, it shouldn't be too hard to figure the calculations for the code itself..


Yeah, I think there is a major error in that initial idea...It isn't clear, but were you saying that the commander in the top of the chain would give each officer 10 gold, then their officers 8 gold, and so on down the chain, down branches down?

yes. juss like how the clicking system works, going upward to the commander -- only this way, opposite. remember, the commander only gives down to the 5 tier. so A gives to B-F. B gives C-G. and everyone in that 5 chain tier gets a portion according to the their "rank."



Then, it would, restart at the 2nd branch, rather than the 1st? In such a way that the fifth branch down would recieve money from the initial commander at 2gp, then 4gp from the 2nd commander, 6gp from the 3rd commander and 8gp from the 4th commander? Something similar to that?

umm. not exactly.

the position of where you are "within" that chain determines who and how much you get.

so referring to the chart,
G would get 10gp from B,
another 8gp from C,
another 6gp from D,
until it gets to himself.



I think that the idea could have some merit, but only if commanders were able to "ditch" their officers.

yes. this would definitely be suggested for commanders to have.



Also, there shouldn't be a chain like that. Each officer should be given perhaps 10 gold from the officer above him, if it were to be fair.

i believe we should follow the same principle of the "click chain." which works very similiar to this system i'm proposing, but instead of going up the chain to benefit the commander, you're going down the chain.



I personally disagree with this idea. I only have 5 officers, but I bust my butt for them, lol. If I had gotten the help that I give them, I would probably be in the top 1k by now! I think that officers get the benefit from the aid given from their commanders, etc.

that may be true. but remember, your officers can be considered your sole support for your gold. since, they're the ones increasing your army size. why not share a bit with them..?

and as much as you're helping them, they too, are helping you, no? how much material support can you really provide? that is, not advice, suggestions, or answering their questions.

at the other end, your officers provides a real substantial support for you. and even aFTER you have "trained" them to be the best they can, what support then, can you offer them that they can't?

Laudimir
9th March 2005, 09:52 PM
About 90% of the men I have acquired are from Unit Production. My officers are people I know personally and have problems recruiting. Thus, their soldiers aren't provided from "clicks," but from the unit production. Thus, I don't actually recieve much support from them. I wouldn't be against them recieving anything for their help, and I kind of like it because it is more life like. But, if it is about the officer's benefits, they get more than there fair share!

kaka duck
9th March 2005, 10:47 PM
About 90% of the men I have acquired are from Unit Production. My officers are people I know personally and have problems recruiting. Thus, their soldiers aren't provided from "clicks," but from the unit production. Thus, I don't actually recieve much support from them. I wouldn't be against them recieving anything for their help, and I kind of like it because it is more life like. But, if it is about the officer's benefits, they get more than there fair share!

i didn't mean to scorn or criticize you in any way. and i apologize if i made an incorrect assumption.

however, officers under you, are there for the benefit of [mainly] one reason -- and thas to provide men.

now, regardless of whether they mainly focus on unit production or not, i'm sure that at least 5%-10% of their force is produced from clicks. it may not be the majority, but that lil' percentage then there provides you with support also.

again, i'm not trying to knock any commanders here, but what would be so wrong in helping out your fellow officers financially? i mean, as a clan, as an alliance, you guys should all be one in the same in trying to help each other out as much as possible.

some, may not see it so fairly that only the commander benefits. since, i would believe, that they would also wanna see some hard tangible support and not just tips, advice, suggestions and such.

i mean, it's kinda like the rich helping the poor, or the powerful helping the weak.

after all, in the end, you are their commander.

i made a big booboo in my first initial post. so if yah haven't already, please re-read the edited version.

=======

also, another thing i should point out, if it wasn't apparent .. is that, the person at the bottom of the 5th tier benefits the most.

that is, if we take a look at the example again, and delve a bit more into the chain contributions, we'll see that ..

F gets 2 gold from A,
F also gets 4 gold from B,
F gets 6 gold from C,
F gets 8 gold from D,
F gets 10 gold from E.

so if everyone juss had one officer under them, and then another officer under them, and so on and so forth -- the people in the middle wouldn't exactly benefit. because as much as they are receiving gold from up the chain, they are also giving out the same amount of gold down their chain.

hOWEVER, it's unrealistic that there would be such a chain. since, most commanders employ multiple officers.

Salidos
10th March 2005, 01:04 AM
So basically the top transfers money to the bottom with no benefit to the middle officers? Though that would have to be a long chain. Since for a chain long enough the net gold would go: -30, -20, -12, -6, -2, 0, 2, 6, 12, 20, 30. So a chain of eleven people is needed before someone is not affected by it.

Now is this 10 gold and so on always 10 gold, or is it relative to something? Right now I make like 3000 gold per turn (not much, but hey), and personally I don't know how much 10 more--or 30 for that matter--per turn will help. If it were based on your commander's army size it would be different; however, 10 gold per turn would then be pretty steep. Not to mention the possibility of 30 gold for a single officer's chain. This is especially true if it is based 10 gold per soldier, because then the commander actually can lose money.

With your system (concentrating only on the first tier of officers), for the first day of this the commander pays each officer 10 TBG for the 12 that he receives for a click the officer gets. The second day he pays 10 TBG for the total 24 he now gets, so a 2 day net would be paying 20 TBG for 36 (12 TBG already made + 12 TBG made second day + 12 more gained). Then 30 for 72 (36 + 24 +12); 40 for 120 (72 + 36 + 12); 50 for 180 (120 + 48 + 12); and so on until eventually the commander is paying an officer practically nothing for the TBG he received from the officer. This increases faster if the commander also clicks the officer's link--twice as fast actually. If the amount paid kept growing, but was proportional to the number of officers I think it would work.

I suggest changing it to paying the first tier 6 * total army size / (number of officers + 2). because it is half of the TBG that one click for the officer makes for the commander. This way the officer pretty much receives 6 TBG for every click they get. This benefits you and the commander because if you both click your own link once per day--hypothetically--you both get 30 TBG for it instead of 24. With this system it becomes complicated for the lower tiers, since you need to know how many officers each of your officers has. I can't think of a sensible proportionate way to go down the tiers further, though.

If you have 98 officers you as the commander gross 9,600 TBG and have 400 troops. 6 * 400 / 100 = 24 (This changes with spies and sentries who make less TBG, correct?). You pay a total of 2352 TBG for the first tier, and are left with 7248. Then you'd have to subtract what you pay the other tiers, but you still get a sizable bonus compared to 192 with no officers, but your officers get a lot out of it too.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that it's an interesting idea, but I would spice it up a bit by making the amount paid not so small for huge armies. Maybe your original idea is better, but I thought I'd throw this out there.

Phyrus
10th March 2005, 01:10 AM
i agree.

however, once you have the basic concept of it down, it shouldn't be too hard to figure the calculations for the code itself..

what i have meant to have said was that its simple to understand how it would work, but by these calculations of how it would work, somewhere down the track it would be thrown way off of who gets what from who. it will become unbalanced. think of it like linking this (the way i see it):

3 is to 1
15 is to 4
50 is to 13
200 is to 35

as i said its hard for me to explain, but if you somehow get the exact same thought as i do, youll understand

bloodpirate
10th March 2005, 09:06 AM
That way you could pay someone to click. when an officer clicks 500 men you give them 5000 gold. when a sub officer clicks 500 men you give them 2500 gold and your officer gives them 5000 gold. is that another way of looking at it??

kaka duck
10th March 2005, 02:50 PM
So basically the top transfers money to the bottom with no benefit to the middle officers? Though that would have to be a long chain. Since for a chain long enough the net gold would go: -30, -20, -12, -6, -2, 0, 2, 6, 12, 20, 30. So a chain of eleven people is needed before someone is not affected by it.

yes. that is correct. this system is basically to help the weakest officers on bottom (theoretically).

anyhow, let's take a look and clarify the chain contributions..

A
..B
....C
......D
........E
..........F
............G
..............H
................I

gold losses ..

A .. 10+8+6+4+2 = -30
B .. 10+8+6+4+2 = -30
C .. 10+8+6+4+2 = -30
D .. 10+8+6+4+2 = -30
E .. 10+8+6+4+2 = -30
F .. 10+8+6+4+2 = -30
G .. 10+8+6+4 = -28
H .. 10+8+6 = -24
I .. 10+8 = -18
J .. 10 = -10
K .. 0

gold gains ..

A .. 0
B .. 10
C .. 10+8 = 18
D .. 10+8+6 = 24
E .. 10+8+6+4 = 28
F .. 10+8+6+4+2 = 30
G .. 10+8+6+4+2 = 30
H .. 10+8+6+4+2 = 30
I .. 10+8+6+4+2 = 30
J .. 10+8+6+4+2 = 30
K .. 10+8+6+4+2 = 30

net total (gains vs losses) ..

A .. 0-30 = -30
B .. 10-30 = -20
C .. 18-30 = -12
D .. 24-30 = -6
E .. 28-30 = -2
F .. 30-30 = 0
G .. 30-28 = 2
H .. 30-24 = 6
I .. 30-18 = 12
J .. 30-10 = 20
K .. 30-0 = 30



Now is this 10 gold and so on always 10 gold, or is it relative to something? Right now I make like 3000 gold per turn (not much, but hey), and personally I don't know how much 10 more--or 30 for that matter--per turn will help. If it were based on your commander's army size it would be different; however, 10 gold per turn would then be pretty steep. Not to mention the possibility of 30 gold for a single officer's chain. This is especially true if it is based 10 gold per soldier, because then the commander actually can lose money.

it's not meant to be a substantial amount. juss enough for the starting "bottom" officers to benefit. in total, if we were to use 10gp per turn (30gp per chain), then that only amounts to 1440gp per day. not much.

ideally, it should be relative to the amount of soldiers the commander has.



With your system (concentrating only on the first tier of officers), for the first day of this the commander pays each officer 10 TBG for the 12 that he receives for a click the officer gets. The second day he pays 10 TBG for the total 24 he now gets, so a 2 day net would be paying 20 TBG for 36 (12 TBG already made + 12 TBG made second day + 12 more gained). Then 30 for 72 (36 + 24 +12); 40 for 120 (72 + 36 + 12); 50 for 180 (120 + 48 + 12); and so on until eventually the commander is paying an officer practically nothing for the TBG he received from the officer. This increases faster if the commander also clicks the officer's link--twice as fast actually. If the amount paid kept growing, but was proportional to the number of officers I think it would work.

but remember, the soldier that the commander received from the clicks also earn tbg. so the offset there needs to also be factored in.



I suggest changing it to paying the first tier 6 * total army size / (number of officers + 2). because it is half of the TBG that one click for the officer makes for the commander. This way the officer pretty much receives 6 TBG for every click they get. This benefits you and the commander because if you both click your own link once per day--hypothetically--you both get 30 TBG for it instead of 24. With this system it becomes complicated for the lower tiers, since you need to know how many officers each of your officers has. I can't think of a sensible proportionate way to go down the tiers further, though.

that formula sounds good. however, instead, we can try .. 2 * total army size / (number of officers + tier position )

0 denoting the officer right under you and increasing incrementally by 1 as you go down the chain. so ..

A giving gold to B would be .. 2 * total army size / (number of officers + 0 )
A giving gold to C would be .. 2 * total army size / (number of officers + 1 )
A giving gold to B would be .. 2 * total army size / (number of officers + 2 )

using real numbers of 1000 soldiers and 5 officers (top commander: A)

B gets : 2 * 1000 / 5 = 400 gold
C gets : 2 * 1000 / (5+1) = 333 gold
D gets : 2 * 1000 / (5+2) = 286 gold
E gets : 2 * 1000 / (5+3) = 250 gold
F gets : 2 * 1000 / (5+4) = 222 gold

total for juss 1 chain : 400+333+286+250+222 = 1,491 gold
total for all 5 officer's chain : 1491*5 = 7,455 gold

tbg = 28gp x 1000soldiers = 28,000gp
28000 - 7455 = 20,545 gold

so the commander still gets to keep a healthy dose of his tbg..



I guess all I'm trying to say is that it's an interesting idea, but I would spice it up a bit by making the amount paid not so small for huge armies. Maybe your original idea is better, but I thought I'd throw this out there.

i totally agree. i only used 10gp as an example -- as it is easier to conceptualize the idea.

anyhow, hopefully i din't screw the example/calculations like i did before .. and why, dangit! does the forum keep appending all my [multiple] posts into one big long post..??


That way you could pay someone to click. when an officer clicks 500 men you give them 5000 gold. when a sub officer clicks 500 men you give them 2500 gold and your officer gives them 5000 gold. is that another way of looking at it??

no, not quite.

regardless of whether the officers under you are clicking or not, you would still be contributing gold to them.

however, as an incentive, if they wanted to earn more gold from their commanders, they would have to increase their commander's army size. hence, the clicking.

jaylweb
26th March 2005, 07:11 PM
I think the best benefit is to use your commander to retaliate on your behalf if they are a higher rank. In turn, I click his link.

I have noticed that I don't benefit from an officers daily unit production. Only from their clicks.

I can think of a few reasons to have the option to ditch an officer.

Maybe the gold idea isn't bad, but should be simplified. Officers get X amount of gold only from their commander. Then limit the number of officers a commander can have or the number of officers that get the gold. I definitely don't think the gold should be a percentage. And why not make it a daily thing, instead of a turn by turn thing? You get X amount of gold when your unit production comes in.