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Lor20_RJ
21st February 2005, 01:37 PM
I didnt quite expect wildfire to make quite such a comeback this time around.
we just broke (for the first time ever) the 1 million clicks within under 24 hours (slightly under 15 hours actually) mark. There have been 2,500 users clicking today to get that (which makes only an average of 400 clicks per person but is still quite impressive. If the koc statistics are correct that means out of the 2.6 million pagevies today 2 million came from our recruiter (gt wonder how those other ppl grew....)
Anyways - just felt like sharing that little bit of info with the community

(Wildfire is the Phoenix Rising Recruiter by the way for those of you who do not know it)

Lor20

Xer0n
21st February 2005, 01:39 PM
heh nice :D PR rocks by the way

Soul-Caliber
21st February 2005, 01:53 PM
yep, i have thriple my army size already in age 4, that i had all in age 3!! this age can be know as the age of the clickers i mean LS just hit 40,000 ALREADY!! hehe

Zap
21st February 2005, 01:55 PM
guess that could be the main reason why the KoC servers are going slow atm since you have broken the click record ;)

AeonsLegend
21st February 2005, 01:58 PM
Im not surprise since everyone can just click anywhere on the image. There's no fault clicks. This sucks and isnt fair to those that would click honestly.

Lor20_RJ
21st February 2005, 02:07 PM
it wouldnt be much lower if you had to actually click the right number...personally i wish they'd go back to the old system for clicking and keep the new one for the armory... cuz the couplehours the new system was "working" clicking was a nightmare.. lots of misclicks and very slow.
Lor20

whirlwind
21st February 2005, 02:07 PM
*moved to alliance discussion - lor you know you shouldnt have this in the great hall.

maggot
21st February 2005, 02:08 PM
I hope they fix this ASAP! I'm on page2 now by legal clicking and I don't want to lose ranks because of that

Propugnator
21st February 2005, 02:14 PM
Well atleast it's all fair now. And the new clicking system gives more variety.

Davie
21st February 2005, 03:10 PM
All i can say is thank you for bringing it to the public, asll new found respect for PR. got 700 clicks today in a few hours and thats with everythnig going sooo slooow!

Neomackenzie
21st February 2005, 04:44 PM
Heh well.. the old clicking system is back now..

And i finally tested Wildfire (and also RRAC and such) and i have to say that it was a quite interesting recruiter.. :) The Rogue guild server one was completely down .. well no it was busy but.. ya.. i managed to get in and it was very very slow... so i went to RRAC and i liked it very much also.. the click are given back pretty quickly.. so *claps* to them aswell..

CW is nice for sure and i think it is the best recruiter comparing to the 2 other ones.. I would put RRAC as 2nd best recruiter tho :)

And yes it is a good thing to make it public.. i think that this will balance the game a little ..

Davie
21st February 2005, 04:50 PM
I also spent a little time CR, was very slow.....

Lor20_RJ
22nd February 2005, 03:35 AM
dunno what this has to do with alliance discussion being that i was just talking about a recruiter which is open to all of koc but one chain but owkay...
We ended up having 1.7 million clicks in the first day, are now at 2 million since the beginning
Lor20

red_phoenix
22nd February 2005, 09:40 PM
I've been trying to get my alliance members to use CW, but with all the anti- huge alliance properganda on my forums it's weird inducing a new recruiter to the forums. But here's a crazy thing, one of my members, (not going to say the name) Clicked 20 links and then stoped, he is now more then 200+ clicks -, at least acording to him.

Lor20_RJ
23rd February 2005, 01:19 AM
we had issues with serverload yesterday resulting in a cronjob not running correctly.. its fixed now and we are nearing 2 mil clicks in a day.. holy mother of jesus ;)
Lor20

Neomackenzie
23rd February 2005, 03:00 AM
we had issues with serverload yesterday resulting in a cronjob not running correctly.. its fixed now and we are nearing 2 mil clicks in a day.. holy mother of jesus ;)
Lor20

Can u give some statistics from last age maybe so we could compare? -_- cuz ur like "omfg" !!! But i am like "heh...?" ^^

Lor20_RJ
23rd February 2005, 06:47 AM
the record for one day last age was under 1 million a day...
entire koc only had roughly 110 million soldiers last age (2 million clicks +officerbonus result in around 3.2 million soldiers)
Lor20

ChaosReaper2
23rd February 2005, 08:08 AM
Wildfire has the best click return of them all. Thanx PR for making it public :icon_lol: I clicked 1118 times yesterday, and got most of them back, like, in 10 min.(1000 to be more exact). I was getting 50 soldiers in like 3 minutes! I LOVE IT!!!


ChaosReaper2

P.S. You will be seeing HUGE amounts of clicks from me from now on.

Shadowfox
23rd February 2005, 10:49 AM
Congrats Lor ... you made indeed a fine clicker :)

Just finished the recruiter 3rd time today ... :)

Ktalah
23rd February 2005, 11:14 AM
Wildfire is a very good recruiter. I've found that of all the clickers I've used, it is the most reliable and probably the fastest. I use other recruiters like evo, rogue (not so much now, seems messed up), rrac and occaisionally CR (also messed). Congrats on making such a good clicker!

moon
23rd February 2005, 11:15 AM
well it helps that you know how the click system will look like before everyone else doesnt it?
Btw RRAC2 gives a clickback on 100% in less than 30 min ^_^~~

Denny
23rd February 2005, 12:48 PM
well it helps that you know how the click system will look like before everyone else doesnt it?
No, it helps that our coding team were all online when the Age began. Lor20 released three new versions of cLickwh0Re within about an hour of the Age starting, in an attempt to get it working and then iron out bugs.

We had no idea what the click system would look like until the Age went live, and I highly doubt that anyone else did either.

Lor20_RJ
24th February 2005, 02:39 PM
yeah that was fun..not :-P i think it was only 2 versions though (d and e). I just threw something out to make clicking as fast as possible... it still has a few issues with the cooldown (along with the dealing with koc pages not loading properly (as if configuration issues of users wouldnt be enough to deal with) oh well. I'm trying :) - its not bugfree yet by any stretch of the imagination (prolly never will be, i just dont have enough ressources) but i guess 3 million clicks a day arent bad.
Lor20

Baazeel
5th March 2005, 12:06 AM
jeez!!

mewants!!!

Please add more to your posts in the future. ~VegnaBlitz

boriszima
5th March 2005, 01:55 AM
koc admins should pay you guys money for making them thousands of dollars.
props to people who make this thing happen. people are growing faster and faster at a faster pace in each age (as noted by fury or denny before)

DarkL0rd
5th March 2005, 09:41 AM
Doesn't PR have a recruitment thread over at the Round Table? I didn't know we were allowed multiple threads :).

Kidding...

Anyways, CW and WF have been very nice in Age 3, and I think they continue to be in Age 4 (I've never used CW, but I don't have to have used it to be able to judge). Well done Lor (and of course fury) :).

DarkL0rd

Diaboli
6th March 2005, 05:12 PM
I didnt quite expect wildfire to make quite such a comeback this time around.
we just broke (for the first time ever) the 1 million clicks within under 24 hours (slightly under 15 hours actually) mark. There have been 2,500 users clicking today to get that (which makes only an average of 400 clicks per person but is still quite impressive. If the koc statistics are correct that means out of the 2.6 million pagevies today 2 million came from our recruiter (gt wonder how those other ppl grew....)
Anyways - just felt like sharing that little bit of info with the community

(Wildfire is the Phoenix Rising Recruiter by the way for those of you who do not know it)

Lor20


yet you cant beat lord striker

Propugnator
6th March 2005, 05:30 PM
Perhaps you should pay attention to Lor's officers.

Here is page 1:

Officers
Name Army Rank
Denny_PR 825,221 Dwarves 3
DynaStie 1,990 Dwarves 316
StaceyJ 11,215 Orcs 388
Menardi- 51,076 Dwarves 1,055
PimpinAintEasy 43,092 Humans 1,222
Ziliac 3,851 Dwarves 2,359
frankey 1,401 Humans 3,238
Ang3lfire 4,570 Humans 3,603
H1_T3cH_5cR3WdRiV3r 825 Elves 4,491
Alexander_Maynard 1,318 Dwarves 5,861
ocean_avenue 175 Humans 5,905
reckless_attacker 947 Humans 6,587
Knight_SM 7,983 Humans 7,694
TribalFireLord 211 Humans 9,109
TheGodsOfChaos 4,792 Elves 9,254
SilahliKuvvetler 1,800 Humans 13,040
lda573 1,577 Orcs 13,151
Lia_nodel44 529 Elves 13,372
Pletzturra 581 Orcs 14,438
oOMaZoNOo 316 Humans 15,264
supervince 1,392 Humans 16,392
QUIMBO 122 Dwarves 18,121
silverskin 1,432 Humans 19,434
dr_dribble 78 Humans 21,186
Sibjan 232 Orcs 23,086
commonfolk 236 Dwarves 25,167
rurugby 125 Dwarves 26,060
rebelgium 61 Orcs 29,637
slayerschaap 130 Orcs 33,175
iwin217 88 Elves 33,250


He gets 1 soldier for every 2 they get. Aside from Denny, it doesn't appear that too many of them are getting a whole lot of clicks. Now notices that LS has well over twice as many men. I think SC's recent influx of click monkeys also plays a major factor.

Diaboli
6th March 2005, 05:33 PM
yeah he has 1 really good officers and 2 pretty decent ones

now someone answer me this, obviously the SC/PR battle/feud/war whatever is the biggest and best one in the game, and I want to be part of it because I think it'd be awsome

now, what side should I join?

Efreet
6th March 2005, 10:22 PM
Overall
Total clicks 36,823,920 (2,639,289 per day)
In the last 24 hours 2,372,150 (98,840 per hour)

that's WF stats since the beginning of Age4 that's pretty impressive in my opinion.

Diaboli - As to what alliance to join, pick the one that you think suit you best. Go onto there IRC channels and talk with them, get to them know them then join up. I'm in PR so I would be biased towards that but there are good people in both sides of the aisle.

phoenixphyre999
7th March 2005, 12:48 AM
I'm curious to know why this thread was simply moved and the threads about the SC and TR recruiters were closed.

Propugnator
7th March 2005, 09:29 AM
Lor was discussing the recruiter, not advertising it.

DarkL0rd
8th March 2005, 07:07 PM
I'm curious to know why this thread was simply moved and the threads about the SC and TR recruiters were closed.

Because this is GUA... get used to it. Been that way forever now, no sign of change. It's been getting better, but there is a way to go yet.


I think SC's recent influx of click monkeys also plays a major factor.

Enemy chains have always referred to our players as just being "click monkeys"... When PR wins an Age because of their clicking, they're not "click monkeys", they're "solid alliance members" :sleeping: . Gets kind of old hearing we're click monkeys. Our mass sabs/attacks are more devastating, and we're full of attacking players.

Kind of annoying. No one seems to give SC any credit (in public anyways... all the forums seem to be full of discussion about the best way to bring us down)...

DarkL0rd

Propugnator
8th March 2005, 07:36 PM
Actually I call anyone who spends all their time clicking a click monkey. I'm blunt. I tell things as they are. There's more to the game then just clicking. ( For most of us anyway ) SC took PR's click monkeys when they got kicked out. ( This is where I got the "click monkey" remark ) Oh, fyi, I was completely neutral until members from LS's chain started showing up in my logs last age... I'm not even in PR. But I must admit, tearing through SC arguements is becoming quite fun, especiallyy when they get facts completely screwed up. ( Just ask LS about his H-bomb analogy ;) )

Blitz
8th March 2005, 08:18 PM
I am sick of accusations of bias on GUA. Some say that it is biased towards PR, or that the mods are anti-SC and pro-PR. This is far from the case. The last few paragraphs will address this, and the first few on your point about the threads being closed.


Because this is GUA... get used to it. Been that way forever now, no sign of change. It's been getting better, but there is a way to go yet.


Enemy chains have always referred to our players as just being "click monkeys"... When PR wins an Age because of their clicking, they're not "click monkeys", they're "solid alliance members" :sleeping: . Gets kind of old hearing we're click monkeys. Our mass sabs/attacks are more devastating, and we're full of attacking players.

Kind of annoying. No one seems to give SC any credit (in public anyways... all the forums seem to be full of discussion about the best way to bring us down)...

DarkL0rd

About this thread:

It is not advertising for a recruiter, but just stating click stats. It is a public recruiter now so this is applicable to non-PR members.

Threads that were closed, and the reasons they were closed...

http://www.giveupalready.com/showthread.php?t=11908&highlight=Recruiter
I closed this thread personally, since it was just an advertisement.

http://www.giveupalready.com/showthread.php?t=8679&highlight=Click+Heaven
Again, I closed this thread personally, since it was just an advertisement.

I could not find any other threads like this--Threads that had a first post about recruiters that were closed in Age 4.

These other threads met the requirements and didn't break the rules, so they were kept open. Notice that it wasn't just this thread. These were the only threads I could find that had the first post on the subject made in Age 4.

http://www.giveupalready.com/showthread.php?t=11537&highlight=Recruiter
http://www.giveupalready.com/showthread.php?t=11519&highlight=Recruiter
http://www.giveupalready.com/showthread.php?t=11823&highlight=Recruiter
(This one was a bit of an advertisement but was not closed...Probably an oversight.)

---

My post a couple months ago: There is No PR Bias on GUA. There might have been Relentless biases in the past, (as in approx 1 year ago) or biases toward other alliances, but we are very careful about this sort of thing on GUA.

Besides, there are not even any PR members among the KoC Moderators. Tytrox is a retired KoC Veteran, Bizzy and Rincewind both play but are not in PR to the best of my knowledge, and Clone is the leader of Overthrow Phoenix Rising Alliance. I was formerly a Phoenix Rising member, but I left some time ago. We all make sure to treat players of both SC and PR equally, and take our jobs as moderators quite seriously. I can personally assure you that there is no PR bias among moderators on GUA.

---

Searched entirety of GUA for term "Click Monkey."

http://www.giveupalready.com/showpost.php?p=87773&postcount=22
http://www.giveupalready.com/showpost.php?p=161374&postcount=11
http://www.giveupalready.com/showpost.php?p=27583&postcount=47
http://www.giveupalready.com/showpost.php?p=11536&postcount=15
http://www.giveupalready.com/showpost.php?p=205490&postcount=80

There were 2 references to PR (one for LGC) as click monkeys, and 1 to SC. The other talk about being a Click Monkey in general.

Searched entirety of GUA for term "Click Monkeys."

http://www.giveupalready.com/showpost.php?p=8370&postcount=8
(A thread was hidden in September as it flamed that PR is click monkeys)
http://www.giveupalready.com/showpost.php?p=99624&postcount=9
http://www.giveupalready.com/showpost.php?p=135723&postcount=12
http://www.giveupalready.com/showpost.php?p=137792&postcount=22
http://www.giveupalready.com/showpost.php?p=181604&postcount=12
http://www.giveupalready.com/showpost.php?p=185906&postcount=13
http://www.giveupalready.com/showpost.php?p=131673&postcount=1
http://www.giveupalready.com/showpost.php?p=205108&postcount=18
http://www.giveupalready.com/showpost.php?p=205483&postcount=3
http://www.giveupalready.com/showpost.php?p=197086&postcount=3
http://www.giveupalready.com/showpost.php?p=210902&postcount=9
http://www.giveupalready.com/showpost.php?p=209304&postcount=9

There were far more references to PR than SC when it comes to Click Monkeys. Well, actually, more reference to click monkeys in general than anything else.

In reference to your last comment about 'all the forums seem to be full of discussion about the best way to bring us down'...

OSA has not been active since Age 3 Beta. OPRA has been quite active throughout Age 3. I'm not going to bother researching this point, but I am willing to bet that there are 3 times as many posts about bringing PR down than SC.

Your claims of bias do not stack up when examining the evidence. Accusations of bias on GUA annoy me greatly, especially when there is nothing to back it up, but great evidence to the contrary.

DarkL0rd
8th March 2005, 10:52 PM
Vegna:

First of all, the following statement I made was mistyped:


Kind of annoying. No one seems to give SC any credit (in public anyways... all the forums seem to be full of discussion about the best way to bring us down)...

What I meant was that in public, no one gives our mass attacks/sabs any credit, but their private forums (PR's, RF's, etc) all seem to be full of posts like "what are we going to do about SC's masses". I didn't mean that GUA was full of posts about how to bring down SC... although I can clearly see how you read it that way. I should have been more clear and I'm sorry.

As far as GUA's bias, it has gotten better recently, but saying it's no problem is a bit naive. The bias isn't as much toward a particular alliance as it is against LordStriker. But since you mentioned it:


It is not advertising for a recruiter, but just stating click stats. It is a public recruiter now so this is applicable to non-PR members.

First of all, check out Lor's initial post. His intent is to draw attention to how well CW is working, and to get more members to click the recruiter (which is a direct PR benefit). Perhaps he doesn't come right out and say "Come click our recruiter", but why else make a thread like this? I'm sure he didn't just want to chat about the click stats.
Second, although PR's recruiter statistics apply to non-PR members too, this is irrelevent for two reasons:
1- PR is the primary beneficiary of Wildfire. Even if recruiter stats do apply to non-PR members, it remains PR's recruiter. CR is open to anyone who isn't in an enemy chain, just like WF, but most people realize that when you discuss CR, you are discussing an SC tool.
2- If Lor's intent was to advertise (which I think it was), then his post is no different from advertising CR (CR is "public" in the same sense WF is "public").

About the term "click monkeys". You're the KoC historian around here right Vegna? You should know that the term was coined by Relentless members in Age 2 and the BETA as a negative term about SC's members. They used it to flame our IRC channels, especially #strikerclan. BoogieBear used to get real upset about this... Of course you're only going to find a few references considering the boards were wiped not long ago. Dig into your KoC history m8 :)...


My post a couple months ago: There is No PR Bias on GUA. There might have been Relentless biases in the past, (as in approx 1 year ago) or biases toward other alliances, but we are very careful about this sort of thing on GUA.

"Might have been Relentless biases in the past" is the hugest understatement I have ever heard. Holy crap. Relentless did it's recruiting through this forum for a loooong time :). Dude I almost always have a lot of respect for your words, but you have to admit that it's a bit more than "might". Please.


Besides, there are not even any PR members among the KoC Moderators. Tytrox is a retired KoC Veteran, Bizzy and Rincewind both play but are not in PR to the best of my knowledge, and Clone is the leader of Overthrow Phoenix Rising Alliance. I was formerly a Phoenix Rising member, but I left some time ago. We all make sure to treat players of both SC and PR equally, and take our jobs as moderators quite seriously. I can personally assure you that there is no PR bias among moderators on GUA.

When did I say moderators favored PR? If you ask me, the general opinion of the leadership of these boards is not "pro-PR" but "anti-SC" (atleast it used to be... I also said within my post that it has been improving drastically).

1- Carnage - leader of a major alliance that opposes Striker. (this is a bit like having Xena or B00K be a mod here).
2- Rouen - founded DKH (if I'm not mistaken), which opposed Striker (sort of like if Omega or another old-time SC member were a mod here).
3- Vegna - member of PR until recently.
4- Clone - opposes recruiters and recruiter using alliances in general (along with Rouen, who feels in a similar way I believe)... I know this doesn't mean he's anti-SC, but it certainly doesn't help.
5- Lenin... :)

I don't care if they're mods or admins or ROOT or whatever other titles they give themselves, so ignore that please...

I'm not out to prove that GUA is biased toward PR OR against SC. I made an off-hand comment that I didn't support. If I had access to the boards of the past, I could make a watertight case in a few weeks time. I'm also not suggesting that these mods/admins actually ACT on their bias. From what I see, much of what goes on here is fair (recently) and I don't have many complaints.

Also, a lot of what goes on is hard to put your finger on. Whenever a major argument between alliances erupts, watch the subtle comments made by the mods/admins... and you'll see what I mean. It's not always as simple as doing a search of the forums for use of the words "LordStriker sucks". Most of it is subtle, which makes a simple problem for people like me:

Plausible Deniability (old fashioned legal term that basically means the comments are subtle enough that if I quoted them, it would be easy for the offending member to make excuses for what they said).

Anyways, I'm out... sorry for the looong post.

DarkL0rd

Elvishlord
9th March 2005, 12:21 AM
DarkL0rd, respect for that post :banana:

I totally agree, about SC, I always get the feeling they are the black sheep in the koc community, even though they're number 1 :smileysto


About the mods on GUA: Not everyone can be happy, and about Clone, he is anti-PR, so that should help a bit/

Blitz
9th March 2005, 10:33 PM
First of all, check out Lor's initial post. His intent is to draw attention to how well CW is working, and to get more members to click the recruiter (which is a direct PR benefit). Perhaps he doesn't come right out and say "Come click our recruiter", but why else make a thread like this? I'm sure he didn't just want to chat about the click stats.
Second, although PR's recruiter statistics apply to non-PR members too, this is irrelevent for two reasons:
1- PR is the primary beneficiary of Wildfire. Even if recruiter stats do apply to non-PR members, it remains PR's recruiter. CR is open to anyone who isn't in an enemy chain, just like WF, but most people realize that when you discuss CR, you are discussing an SC tool.
2- If Lor's intent was to advertise (which I think it was), then his post is no different from advertising CR (CR is "public" in the same sense WF is "public").

A lot of things can be considered advertisements. Any time any alliance member makes a popular thread and has an advertisement in his signature, one could complain that they are receiving special treatment, especially if the thread is stickied. Lord Galdor had some threads like this, as did Denny, and yes, LordStriker has a stickied thread right now. Is this also considered biased?

Shadowfox made a thread a little while ago on the subject of chains with over 100 members, and pointed out his own chain. Was this an advertisement? Probably. Was it closed? No, because it did lead to an interesting discussion, and certainly wasn't exclusive to himself.

But enough of those examples, how about something a bit closer to home. If SC were to make a post in the top rankings discussion that they have the #1 spot, would this be advertising? What if PR was to advertise their winning Age 3? Would that be simply stating a fact, or would it be an advertisement, and have to be shut down? Is Denny's new title an act of GUA bias? How about threads where alliances are allowed to post their statistics? We have a couple of those here on GUA--Should they be shut down?

A line has to be drawn somewhere, and it was decided what that point was. If we were to start making exceptions, then that would be biased. Please show me where we did not adhere to our rules and then I will reverse those actions.


About the term "click monkeys". You're the KoC historian around here right Vegna? You should know that the term was coined by Relentless members in Age 2 and the BETA as a negative term about SC's members. They used it to flame our IRC channels, especially #strikerclan. BoogieBear used to get real upset about this... Of course you're only going to find a few references considering the boards were wiped not long ago. Dig into your KoC history m8 ...

My interview last May with OmegaSt0rm, as LordStriker was not interested in an interview at the time:
http://s6.invisionfree.com/FIT/index.php?showtopic=259

According to OmegaSt0rm, SC and Relentless allied early in Age 2. Also, SC was not truly formed as an alliance until the CR was already developed, as SC did not have forums until after the CR was completed. It was only until the end of Age 2 that SC and Relentless declared war on each other.

I'm not quite sure what the problem is on this count. SC and Relentless were at war, and it was not only Relentless that was throwing around insults, or inciting SC. I believe the war was started after LordStriker started a mass attack, and there were other pre-emptive strategies taken by SC in the time afterwards. After Relentless started using the term "Click Monkeys" I know SC and others started using the term as well in reference to Relentless, and later, PR.

Word and phrase origin is interesting, but when the term is used far more in reference to PR than SC, the argument has no evidence backing it up. I'm not even sure what the point is, considering that I knew SC took just as many counter-measures and pre-emptive actions against Relentless as it took against SC...Although this again has little to do with GUA.


"Might have been Relentless biases in the past" is the hugest understatement I have ever heard. Holy crap. Relentless did it's recruiting through this forum for a loooong time . Dude I almost always have a lot of respect for your words, but you have to admit that it's a bit more than "might". Please.

[quote=FiT-VegnaBlitz]
Besides, there are not even any PR members among the KoC Moderators. Tytrox is a retired KoC Veteran, Bizzy and Rincewind both play but are not in PR to the best of my knowledge, and Clone is the leader of Overthrow Phoenix Rising Alliance. I was formerly a Phoenix Rising member, but I left some time ago. We all make sure to treat players of both SC and PR equally, and take our jobs as moderators quite seriously. I can personally assure you that there is no PR bias among moderators on GUA.



When did I say moderators favored PR? If you ask me, the general opinion of the leadership of these boards is not "pro-PR" but "anti-SC" (atleast it used to be... I also said within my post that it has been improving drastically).

1- Carnage - leader of a major alliance that opposes Striker. (this is a bit like having Xena or B00K be a mod here).
2- Rouen - founded DKH (if I'm not mistaken), which opposed Striker (sort of like if Omega or another old-time SC member were a mod here).
3- Vegna - member of PR until recently.
4- Clone - opposes recruiters and recruiter using alliances in general (along with Rouen, who feels in a similar way I believe)... I know this doesn't mean he's anti-SC, but it certainly doesn't help.
5- Lenin...

I don't care if they're mods or admins or ROOT or whatever other titles they give themselves, so ignore that please...

I'm not out to prove that GUA is biased toward PR OR against SC. I made an off-hand comment that I didn't support. If I had access to the boards of the past, I could make a watertight case in a few weeks time. I'm also not suggesting that these mods/admins actually ACT on their bias. From what I see, much of what goes on here is fair (recently) and I don't have many complaints.

I was quoting an old post of mine on a similar issue, to show that staff members are not more anti-SC or pro-PR. However, I will respond to the rest of your post...

Carnage: No longer a staff member. He quit a month ago, and was not playing KoC until after he quit. Unless you're going to claim that all PR members registered on GUA are a deliberate act by GUA to make it an anti-SC atmosphere, please don't bring him into this.

Rouen: Relentless leader? Of course. But he quit KoC and Relentless before being promoted to staff. Also, I distinctly remember him closing the Relentless recruitment thread himself, due to spam. He is a police officer in real life, and knows how to put aside biases. He was an admin here, but only because he stepped up and put his money where his mouth was--GUA had a crisis as the owner, with little warning, decided to sell the site. Rouen was one of the main people who saved GUA. Are you going to call that a Relentless bias?

Myself: I haven't been a member or affiliated with Relentless or PR since May. May 2004, 10 months ago, early Age 3 Beta. I was a member for less than a month. Do a little more research before you call it "Recent." ;)

Clone: He founded Overthrow Phoenix Rising Alliance, and you still claim that he contributes to a Pro-PR atmosphere? o.O

Lenin: Last I heard was Anti-PR, although I might be mistaken.

I am a little confused with your last comment though about not having any complaints...I thought that was what this discussion was about. Why else was it brought up?


Also, a lot of what goes on is hard to put your finger on. Whenever a major argument between alliances erupts, watch the subtle comments made by the mods/admins... and you'll see what I mean. It's not always as simple as doing a search of the forums for use of the words "LordStriker sucks". Most of it is subtle, which makes a simple problem for people like me:

Plausible Deniability (old fashioned legal term that basically means the comments are subtle enough that if I quoted them, it would be easy for the offending member to make excuses for what they said).

Subtle comments? Things can be taken a lot of ways, and unless you have something solid, then don't accuse others. That may be plausible deniability, but anything else is a witch hunt.

If there is a "PR Bias" or a past "Relentless Bias" then it is not the mods/admins. It's the members, who are not being presented with both sides of the argument. It is not GUA's responsibilities to present the SC side of the argument, or see to it that GUA gives as many new members to SC as it does to Relentless. Within the bounds of the rules, which treat all players equally, then players may post or do what they like on GUA.

If Relentless/PR made their arguments better than SC in the past, or were able to more effectively recruit using GUA (that was one of the points you brought up) then either SC has the weaker argument or is not presenting it effectively. It's not the GUA staff's fault.

DarkL0rd
10th March 2005, 08:11 AM
Wow Vegna, you have the innate ability to completely ignore what someone has said and move out onto your own tangent. :) For that I commend you. I guess I'll just re-post a few of my comments, and maybe this time you'll read them?


When did I say moderators favored PR? If you ask me, the general opinion of the leadership of these boards is not "pro-PR" but "anti-SC" (atleast it used to be... I also said within my post that it has been improving drastically).

I didn't claim these boards favored PR, so why are you arguing that they DON'T favor PR?


A lot of things can be considered advertisements. Any time any alliance member makes a popular thread and has an advertisement in his signature, one could complain that they are receiving special treatment, especially if the thread is stickied. Lord Galdor had some threads like this, as did Denny, and yes, LordStriker has a stickied thread right now. Is this also considered biased?

Shadowfox made a thread a little while ago on the subject of chains with over 100 members, and pointed out his own chain. Was this an advertisement? Probably. Was it closed? No, because it did lead to an interesting discussion, and certainly wasn't exclusive to himself.

But enough of those examples, how about something a bit closer to home. If SC were to make a post in the top rankings discussion that they have the #1 spot, would this be advertising? What if PR was to advertise their winning Age 3? Would that be simply stating a fact, or would it be an advertisement, and have to be shut down? Is Denny's new title an act of GUA bias? How about threads where alliances are allowed to post their statistics? We have a couple of those here on GUA--Should they be shut down?

A line has to be drawn somewhere, and it was decided what that point was. If we were to start making exceptions, then that would be biased. Please show me where we did not adhere to our rules and then I will reverse those actions.

A Philosophy or Critical Thinking course should be required before allowing members to moderate GUA. This part of your argument is annoying and extremely weak.
First of all, pointing out what "could" be advertising says nothing about what "is" advertising. Making a post about lampshades COULD be considered advertising, but that adds nothing to the discussion. So why post it?
Second of all, there are huge differences between what Lor did and the other things you suggested COULD be considered advertising.

1- Lor STARTED a thread with the SOLE INTENT of getting more members to click PR's recruiter. The thread was about how well the recruiter is working (he might as well have posted CPM stats too). I said this in my last post, and you made no attempt to prove me wrong (probably because in this case, it can't be done lol): Lor made this post for the purpose of getting more people to click WF... period. He wasn't try to start an interesting discussion, and it's pretty darn naive to say that he was. NOW, this causes a little problem for you:

Clone has a stickied thread that says: NO RECRUITING in the Alliance Discussion. So unless you can show that Lor's post was NOT made for the purpose of getting more members to click on WF, anything you say is worthless. And Vegna... you CAN'T do that :). This is a losing battle for you. Lor clearly made that post to get more members on WF, which is ADVERTISING. Your only hope is to dive into semantics and claim that "trying to get more members on WF" is not the same as "recruiting" ... also stupid.

I guess one direction you could take successfully is this:

Although Lor's thread seemed to advertise WF, it did so in such a way that it presented people with information they wouldn't have had otherwise (like the page hit thing), so it was useful enough to leave open. I still think it should have been closed, because your rules state that advertising is not allowed... but that's beside the point.

2- The content was in the thread itself, not in the signature or user title, which means GUA staff can easily control it.

3- This thread was not started to help anyone but PR. LG's posts help members learn how to play, and that's different. This thread was meant to get more recruits.

4- Reading this thread implies action. If you read a thread where a player says "wow I have over 100 members in my chain"... that implies no action (nothing in that statement says, "you should make it 101"). But saying a recruiter is working great implies you should go click it. Big difference.

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I'm not even going to respond to your arguments about the specific players (Carnage, Rouen, etc) because they're irrelevent. I never said that these mods ACT on their bias, but there is no doubt that the bias is there. Suppose you got fired from your GUA position tomorrow Vegna... you're telling me that there is an equal chance that you would rejoin the KoC community in SC as in PR? You would probably rejoin PR, and there's no chance you'd EVER join SC... Why is that? It's not a bad thing, but you're biased. You like PR better than SC. (NOTE THAT I NEVER SAID YOU ACT ON IT WHILE IN YOUR ROLE AS A GUA MOD).

I am aware that GUA and #kingsofchaos are unrelated in many ways, but many Striker Clan members feel the same way when they come here that they do when they visit #kingsofchaos. You click a link on the KOC webpage which has the word "official" by it, and you're taken to a chat room where all the SOps and AOps are members of PR leadership. Even if all these leaders do abide by the rules 100%, how can a member of SC feel comfortable there?
I have felt the same way about GUA in the past, but like I said in my other posts, IT IS GETTING BETTER. There is not NEARLY the issue that there was in the past. In fact, outside of the fact that this thread should have been closed, it hasn't been an issue in a LONG time on GUA as far as I can see. But the fact remains that many SC players feel uncomfortable here.

I'm not suggesting modship should be given to a few SC members to make this forum balanced, or that anything really needs to change. I'm just stating a fact: "SC members are uncomfortable here".

If you want to continue this discussion, please do so in PM. I don't want to continue this discussion in public, because I've been through this before with Rouen, and I want to avoid the problems we faced when we discussed this. Once we took it to PM, we came to good terms (I think anyway, he may disagree), and I would like to do the same with you. Thanks...

DarkL0rd

fury
10th March 2005, 08:30 AM
discussion of bias moved to PM as requested in above post

In regards to this specific thread, it is an alliance discussion topic and is open for anyone to discuss the same kind of stats that Lor discussed in his original post. If LS wanted to come into the thread and brag about how many clicks per day CR is generating, Vanraa wanted to come into the thread and brag about RG, Sweet_Shadow about LOP, et al., then they are free to do so. Nobody is stopping them like they would in an alliance recruiting thread. That's what makes the thread a discussion.

EworTam
10th March 2005, 08:56 AM
It is not advertising for a recruiter, but just stating click stats. It is a public recruiter now so this is applicable to non-PR members.

Then why is it in the ALLIANCE discussion, instead of the Great Hall. Your actions are contradicting your words.

The only reason for the click stats to be stated is to advertise the recruiter and how well it's working. I don't see any benefit to the KoC community of knowing these stats so maybe they belong in the Chaos Wastelands.

Denny
10th March 2005, 09:25 AM
Then why is it in the ALLIANCE discussion, instead of the Great Hall.
Because Whirlwind moved it from the Great Hall (where Lor20 posted it) to here. I don't think he really knows enough about KoC alliance politics to realise that most of the big clicksites aren't alliance-specific tools any more.

As fury says, it would have been nice if the other clicksite admins had posted some fun facts about their own sites in here too... you can't have too much pointless information :)

I tend to agree that the Wastelands might be a good place for this thread actually - but I'm pretty sure that subforum didn't exist when it was posted, so the Great Hall was probably the best place for it at that time.

Blitz
10th March 2005, 10:42 AM
I'll reply to the comments made in the appropriate thread later this afternoon. (I have an exam in an hour.) As this thread has moved off-topic, and there is a new thread on the topic, this thread is closed.